LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
You have no idea.
So, number of jump shots has barely changed over the years. Mid range shots are soooooooo much more exciting than 3s. lol.
The game was in horrible shape when MJ retired. He basically led the league to a horrible visual product.
And viewship is down? Do you realise how basketball is consumed these days? Welcome to the internet old man. Did you see the ridiculous amount of money that it cost for the broadcast rights?
I'm sure NBA players are fine with what's happened since 2012.
No
Man fidstar, if I were ever to see Verbal Checkmate..... this is it.
A truly masterpiece of a post!
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HIGHEST MID-RANGE ATTEMPTS AND EFFICIENCY IN NBA FINALS SINCE 1997, COMPARED TO JORDAN'S 1991 FINALS
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PRE-1997 DOMINANT TITLE RUNS AND 1ST OPTIONS (BUT NO ASSISTED-RATE DATA)
* 1983 Sixers (12-1).............. MOSES MALONE - big man
* 1991 Bulls (15-2)................ JORDAN - 50% assisted rate in 97/98' and his best mid-range stats were in 91' (stats above)
* 1989 Pistons (15-2)............. ISIAH - possible exception
* 1950 Lakers (11-2)............. GEORGE MIKAN - big man
* 1981 Lakers (12-2)............. KAREEM - big man
* 1971 Bucks (12-2).............. KAREEM - big man
* 1996 Bulls (15-3)................ JORDAN - 50% assisted rate in 97' & 98'
* 1987 Lakers (15-3).............. MAGIC - possible exception
* 1986 Celtics (15-3)............. BIRD - big man
* 16. 1972 Lakers (12-3)........ WEST OR GOODRICH - possible exceptions
* 1963 Celtics (8-2)............... HEINSOHN - big man
* 1961 Celtics (8-2)............... HEINSOHN - big man
TLDR: 72', 87' and 89' are the only possible exceptions of dominant playoff runs that didn't include a highly-assisted big man or Jordan as the 1st options.
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TOP 8 PLAYOFF RECORDS DURING TITLE RUNS SINCE 1997 AND THE ASSISTED RATE OF 1ST OPTION IN REGULAR SEASON, PLAYOFFS:
1. 2017 Warriors (16-1)......... DURANT 61.7, 64.4
2. 2001 Lakers (15-1)............. SHAQ 64.5, 64.4
3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)............... DUNCAN 60.5, 63.9
4. 2024 Celtics (16-3)............. TATUM 40.0, 46.5
5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4).......... JOKIC 62.7, 58.6
6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)............... DUNCAN 46.1, 48.3
7. 2002 Lakers (15-4).............. SHAQ 61.2, 59.1
8. 1997 Bulls (15-4).................. JORDAN 53.0, 44.9
^^^^^ nothing below 40% assisted rate for 8 of 8 dominant champions (above) and also 4 of 4 dynasties (Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Curry)
And prior to 1997 (before the tracking of assisted rate), every dominant title run had a highly-assisted big man or Jordan as the 1st options, with the only exceptions being 72', 87' or 89' where a possibly low-assisted player was 1st option.. And 2 of 2 dynasties had low-assisted big men (Heinsohn, Kareem).
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Assists per game
88' Pippen...... 2
89' Pippen...... 3
90' Pippen...... 5
91' Pippen...... 6
Stop lying to the kid or he'll never grow into a man
Lebron's team assists never grow past his rookie year and cannot grow into high-assist teams because his high volume of unassisted buckets lowers everyone's assists - this is true of all high-scorers with low-assisted rates since 1997 - they produce lower-assist teams that rank 18th on average.
Again, this is just math, so it's not like, my subjective opinion or something - it might've started out that way but the numbers proved me right (of course).
Giannis currently at the sky high assisted rate of 42%. I'm pretty sure you wrote essays about how horrible LeBron was when he has a career average of around 40%.
lol
Giannis has never been below 40% assisted rate, as required by 1st options of the best basketball, such as 8 of 8 dominant champions and 4 of 4 dynasties since 97'.
More importantly, Giannis is capable of 50 and 60% assisted rates, while Lebron is always in the 30's land barely scraped 40 once during his time as a competitive player that was seeking titles (thru 21').. The only skillset that has there numbers are ball-dominators like Luka, Lillard, Harden, etc.
Mid-range has more variety like turnarounds, footwork, more elevation and far more contests... Each player developed their style to deal with the contests, so Glenn Robinson's goat mid-range looked different than Bird's, who looks different than Dirk, who looks different from MJ, who looks different from Alex English, etc, etc... Otoh, 3's are mostly open (statistical fact and linkable data) and robotic, while the mid-range has more moves than just step-backs.
Basically, you don't know basketball
Btw, NBA.com data says that 80% of threes are either "open" (4-6 feet from closest defender) or "wide open (6+ feet).
The game was in horrible shape when MJ retired. He basically led the league to a horrible visual product.
The league was at it's zenith in 1998 from a ratings and interest, while league scoring was healthy, but it declined immediately after he retired because of all the imitators...
This is common knowledge... Listen to Iverson's HOF speech - Iverson led the imitators, along with Steve Francis and all these bad, low efficiency guards that wanted to be MJ but didn't understand his fundamentals, efficiency, ball-control, or assisted style (off-ball).
Yeah 48% since Lebron started colluding... Literally
Do you realise how basketball is consumed these days? Welcome to the internet old man. Did you see the ridiculous amount of money that it cost for the broadcast rights?
The decline was gradual but then 28% this year alone, so something happened in addition to the general declining interest.... It's just everything coming to a head at the same time, such as 3-point contest + players don't care + collusions = time for new hobby.. This is what everyone is saying.
This attention to the players (and not fans) by letting players sit out, collude and score so easily is why no one is watching anymore - 28% decline this year alone.
Meanwhile there were 6 different Championship teams between 1980 to 1998. 7 between 1980 and 2003.
Great teams = great basketball
Accordingly, there's no great basketball anymore (no dynasties) because today's skillset is the aforementioned low-assisted scorer that has never been 1st option on a dynasty and produces low-assist teams that lack the historic ball movement that every dynasty has... It's just weak brand of ball and "accidental basketball" according to Kobe, since the player drives the lane and then kicks out - it's random and "accidental", and less calculated.. (Kobe here)
Dance Dance Dance (Assist%) Revolution!
Since 1997, every dynasty (4) and dominant champion that lost 4 games or less in the playoffs (8) were led by highly-assisted 1st options, while low-assisted 1st options produced low-assist teams that lacked the historic ball movement required of every dynasty.
Accordingly, Lebron, Luka and that type of skillset are simply inferior to the best players from highly-assisted skillsets, since the highly-assisted skillsets produce the best basketball - they're required to be 1st option on dynasties or dominant champions.
Montrealcorp,
This is true, and like MJ I am sure that LeBron’s ppg would have declined some.
But, we have shown conclusively in this thread that team assists are what dynasties are built upon. LeBron is a far better playmaker than Jordan, averaging up to 10.2 apg in a year he won a championship. Jordan did average 8.0 apg once but that was in a year he failed and lost. Jordan’s assists capped out at 6.1 in a year he won. LeBron averaged 67.2% more peak assists per game in a winning year. The difference in playmaking, and therefore team assists contributions, between the two players in winning years is night and day. And since team assists is the key to dynasties, this is proof that LeBron’s playmaking, assists, and versatility are superior and would allow him to plug into any offense and makes him the GOAT.
And just a reminder he did all this without playing in the triangle under Phil Jackson, just on random teams, none of which are known for their great ball movement. MJ needed Pippen, Phil Jackson, and the triangle to rescue him (zero rings without). LeBron did not and he won on 3 different team with different coaches and different systems. LeBron didn’t need rescuing — MJ did. LeBron built his dynasty on his own and brought titles to three different cities.
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ALL TITLE RUNS WITH 5 LOSSES OR LESS IN PLAYOFFS SINCE 1997 AND THE ASSISTED RATE OF 1ST OPTION IN REGULAR SEASON, PLAYOFFS
1. 2017 Warriors (16-1)........... DURANT 61.7, 64.4
2. 2001 Lakers (15-1)............... SHAQ 64.5, 64.4
3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)................ DUNCAN 60.5, 63.9
4. 2024 Celtics (16-3).............. TATUM 40.0, 46.5
5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4)........... JOKIC 62.7, 58.6
6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)................ DUNCAN 46.1, 48.3
7. 2002 Lakers (15-4)............... SHAQ 61.2, 59.1
8. 1997 Bulls (15-4).................. JORDAN 53.0, 44.9
9. 2018 Warriors (16-5)............ DURANT 54.3, 43.4
10. 2015 Warriors (16-5).......... DURANT 44.4, 45.5
11. 2011 Mavs (16-5)................ DIRK 63.1, 54.2
12. 2020 Lakers (16-5).............. AD 63.2, 61.5
HISTORICAL AND STATISTICAL FACT: High-scorers with assisted rates below 40% (ball-dominators) are never 1st options on dominant champions (0 for 12), or dynasties (0 for 4)... Dominant champions require assisted rates of 40% or more from the 1st option (12 of 12), while 4 of 4 dynasties required highly-assisted 1st options as well (Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Curry)... So the best basketball such as dynasties and dominant champions require highly-assisted 1st options, in part because their high volume of assisted buckets produces high-assist teams and therefore fosters the historic ball movement that all dynasty have.
There was little or no statistical decline for Jordan in the triangle:
Regular Season
85-90' Jordan...... 32.8.... 6.3... 6.0.... 59.2 TS... 10.8 BPM... 0.267 WS/48... 29.9 PER
91-93' Jordan...... 31.4.... 6.4... 5.7.... 58.2 TS... 11.0 BPM... 0.288 WS.48....29.7 PER
Playoffs
85-90' Jordan...... 35.8.... 6.9... 6.7.... 59.0 TS... 12.4 BPM... 0.249 WS/48... 29.7 PER
91-93' Jordan...... 33.7.... 6.4... 6.6.... 57.2 TS... 11.8 BPM... 0.267 WS/48....29.5 PER
Finals
91-93' Jordan...... 36.3.... 6.6.... 7.9
MJ is the goat off-guard and a highly-assisted player, so his game already fit in the triangle, which is why his numbers remained mostly the same, or even increased with regards to BPM, WS or Finals stats... His off-ball game and fundamentals is why he won RIGHT AWAY in the triangle (pretty much)...
Otoh, high scorers that are low-assisted (ball-dominators) like Luka and Lebron would have a massive adjustment and see material decline in their numbers because they cannot dominate off-ball the same way Nash cannot dominate from the post, or Shaq cannot dominate from the 3-point line. .. This is confirmed in numerous ways because Lebron had many chances to play off-ball with guys like Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, Jamison, Bosh, Love, Kuzma and more, but he was forced to have bad fits and underachievement instead.... And he also got coaches like Blatt and Walton fired when they tried to install a ball movement system.. He's been the primary ball-handler for every team that he's on.
During Lebron's time as a competitive player that was seeking titles (thru 2021), his assisted rate peaked at 40% twice and was otherwise in his 30's for his entire career (36% average) - the only skillset with these low assisted rates are high-scoring ball-dominators like Luka, SGA, Harden, Westbrook, Lillard, etc, etc, etc.... The entirety of their careers (over 100 years) shows that none of these high-scoring, low-assisted players have ever run a ball movement system like Jokic, Curry, Jordan or Duncan (highly-assisted players), and they produce low-assist teams of 18th on average (stats earlier itt).
Ultimately, Phil inherited a team that was already on the cusp of the Finals.. The Bulls were already a title-caliber team by taking the Bad Boys to 6 games in 1989 (despite pippen missing game 6), and also being the only team to win games off the Bad Boys in the 89' Playoffs... People forget that MJ carried a weak cast to 7 games with the Bad Boys, while Bird and Magic were going 7 with super-teams... The instant MJ got an all-star, the Pistons were swept and finished, while Bird and Magic were going 7 games with super-teams.. That shows the difference in how much less help MJ needed than studs like Bird and Magic - it's a clear demonstration of MJ's vast superiority to other top 10 all-time players.
"The average NBA team is worth $4.6 billion, a 15% rise over last year and nearly twice the worth from four years ago."
woodycryingintomoney.gif
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There was little or no statistical decline for Jordan in the triangle:
Regular Season
85-90' Jordan...... 32.8.... 6.3... 6.0.... 59.2 TS... 10.8 BPM... 0.267 WS/48... 29.9 PER
91-93' Jordan...... 31.4.... 6.4... 5.7.... 58.2 TS... 11.0 BPM... 0.288 WS.48....29.7 PER
Playoffs
85-90' Jordan...... 35.8.... 6.9... 6.7.... 59.0 TS... 12.4 BPM... 0.249 WS/48... 29.7 PER
91-93' Jordan...... 33.7.... 6.4... 6.6.... 57.2 TS... 11.8 BPM... 0.267 WS/48....29.5 PER
Finals
91-93' Jordan...... 36.3.... 6.6.... 7.9
MJ is the goat off-guard and a highly-assisted player, so his game already fit in the triangle, which is why his numbers remained mostly the same, or even increased with regards to BPM, WS or Finals stats... His off-ball game and fundamentals is why he won RIGHT AWAY in the triangle (pretty much)...
Otoh, high scorers that are low-assisted (ball-dominators) like Luka and Lebron would have a massive adjustment and see material decline in their numbers because they cannot dominate off-ball the same way Nash cannot dominate from the post, or Shaq cannot dominate from the 3-point line. .. This is confirmed in numerous ways because Lebron had many chances to play off-ball with guys like Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, Jamison, Bosh, Love, Kuzma and more, but he was forced to have bad fits and underachievement instead.... And he also got coaches like Blatt and Walton fired when they tried to install a ball movement system.. He's been the primary ball-handler for every team that he's on.
During Lebron's time as a competitive player that was seeking titles (thru 2021), his assisted rate peaked at 40% twice and was otherwise in his 30's for his entire career (36% average) - the only skillset with these low assisted rates are high-scoring ball-dominators like Luka, SGA, Harden, Westbrook, Lillard, etc, etc, etc.... The entirety of their careers (over 100 years) shows that none of these high-scoring, low-assisted players have ever run a ball movement system like Jokic, Curry, Jordan or Duncan (highly-assisted players), and they produce low-assist teams of 18th on average (stats earlier itt).
Ultimately, Phil inherited a team that was already on the cusp of the Finals.. The Bulls were already a title-caliber team by taking the Bad Boys to 6 games in 1989 (despite pippen missing game 6), and also being the only team to win games off the Bad Boys in the 89' Playoffs... People forget that MJ carried a weak cast to 7 games with the Bad Boys, while Bird and Magic were going 7 with super-teams... The instant MJ got an all-star, the Pistons were swept and finished, while Bird and Magic were going 7 games with super-teams.. That shows the difference in how much less help MJ needed than studs like Bird and Magic - it's a clear demonstration of MJ's vast superiority to other top 10 all-time players.
You're repeating stuff that Tex and Phil were already proven wrong about - they thought Jordan's stats would go down and he wouldn't be scoring champ anymore, which couldn't be dumber.. The issue is that the "assisted rate" stat didn't exist back then, so it didn't click that the majority of jordan's buckets were already assisted like the triangle requires.. Jordan's highly-assisted game already fit into the triangle, which is why is stats didn't materially-decline in the triangle and he won RIGHT AWAY with the triangle (pretty much).
Otoh, low-assisted ball-dominators like Luka and Lebron have never played with the higher assisted rates that the triangle requires, so they would see massive statistical decline if they were running off-screens like Klay or Rip... Their decline would be a lesser version of what Nash would see on the post, or Shaq would see at the 3-point line.
Bad fits with many player types confirms that Lebron can only play 1 way - he's been the primary ballhandler for every team in his career and his assisted rate when he was a competitive player (thru 2021) peaked at 40% twice and otherwise was in the 30's every other year (36% average) - the only skillset with these kinds of low assisted rates are point guards.
we have shown conclusively in this thread that team assists are what dynasties are built upon. LeBron is a far better playmaker than Jordan, averaging up to 10.2 apg in a year he won a championship.
High APG for the individual player has a negative correlation with team assists - look it up.
Among high-scorers, the high-APG players are all low-assisted ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron, or Lillard, and we know that low-assisted scorers produce low assist-teams that average 18th in team assists since 1997, as shown earlier.
So looks like you lost again.
Lebron needed an extra Pippen (a 3rd star), so he needed far more all-star help, scoring help, rim protection and playmaking help:
APG
Westbrook........ 8.6
Rondo................ 8.0
Kyrie.................. 5.7
D-Lo................... 5.7
Wade................. 5.4
Jordan................ 5.3
Pippen............... 5.2
The projection is amazing.... lmao
Lebron teamed up with his opponents because his low-assisted skillset imposes spot-up roles, so it doesn't develop young players or great chemistry, and therefore couldn't win with the roster he was given like highly-assisted skillsets do (Jokic, Jordan, Duncan, Curry, Kobe).
^^^ the delusions and denial of a defeated fan that knows he fell for a fraud.. we're literally witnessing a crazy person.
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ALL TITLE RUNS WITH 5 LOSSES OR LESS IN PLAYOFFS SINCE 1997 AND THE ASSISTED RATE OF 1ST OPTION IN REGULAR SEASON, PLAYOFFS
1. 2017 Warriors (16-1)........... DURANT - 61.7, 64.4
2. 2001 Lakers (15-1)............... SHAQ - 64.5, 64.4
3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)................ DUNCAN - 60.5, 63.9
4. 2024 Celtics (16-3).............. TATUM - 40.0, 46.5
5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4)........... JOKIC - 62.7, 58.6
6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)................ DUNCAN - 46.1, 48.3
7. 2002 Lakers (15-4)............... SHAQ - 61.2, 59.1
8. 1997 Bulls (15-4).................. JORDAN - 53.0, 44.9
9. 2018 Warriors (16-5)............ DURANT - 54.3, 43.4
10. 2015 Warriors (16-5).......... DURANT - 44.4, 45.5
11. 2011 Mavs (16-5)................ DIRK - 63.1, 54.2
12. 2020 Lakers (16-5).............. AD - 63.2, 61.5
HISTORICAL AND STATISTICAL FACT: High-scorers with assisted rates below 40% (ball-dominators) are never 1st options on dominant champions (0 for 12), or dynasties (0 for 4)... Dominant champions require assisted rates of 40% or more from the 1st option (12 of 12), while 4 of 4 dynasties required highly-assisted 1st options as well (Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Curry)... So the best basketball such as dynasties and dominant champions require highly-assisted 1st options, in part because their high volume of assisted buckets produces high-assist teams and therefore fosters the historic ball movement that all dynasty have.. Otoh, low-assisted 1st options produce low-assist teams that rank 18th in since 1997.
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Thread Cliffs
There's only 1 skillset that is never the 1st option on a dynasty or dominant champion, and that skillset is point guard-style players, who are the only skillset with assisted rates under 40% and cannot reach high-40's or 50... This type of low-assisted 1st option includes Lillard, Lebron or Luka-style players, and they never produce the best basketball (dynasty or dominant champion).
Otoh, 4 of 4 dynasties and 12 of 12 dominant champions since 1997 had highly-assisted 1st options, whose high volume of assisted buckets produces high-assist teams and fosters the historic ball movement that all dynasties have.
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TEAM ASSIST RANKING OF 1ST OPTIONS FROM EVERY DYNASTY (TEAMS THAT MOSTLY WON OVER A MATERIAL STRETCH OF 5+ YEARS), PLUS BIRD, JOKIC, AND LEBRON'S TOO:
57' Heinsohn........ 2nd
58' Heinsohn........ 3rd
59' Heinsohn........ 1st
60' Heinsohn........ 2nd
61' Heinsohn........ 4th
62' Heinsohn........ 3rd
63' Heinsohn........ 1st
64' Heinsohn........ 4th
65' Heinsohn........ 2nd
___________________________
Average................. 2.5
70' Kareem........... 2nd
71' Kareem........... 1st
72' Kareem........... 3rd
73' Kareem........... 3rd
74' Kareem........... 1st
75' Kareem........... 9th
76' Kareem........... 7th
77' Kareem........... 5th
78' Kareem........... 5th
79' Kareem........... 3rd
80' Kareem........... 1st
81' Kareem........... 2nd
82' Kareem........... 1st
83' Kareem........... 1st
84' Kareem........... 2nd
85' Kareem........... 1st
86' Kareem........... 1st
87' Kareem........... 1st
88' Kareem........... 3rd
89' Kareem........... 2nd
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Average................ 5.4
85' Jordan............. 20th
87' Jordan............. 12th
88' Jordan.............. 9th
89' Jordan.............. 6th
90' Jordan.............. 7th
91' Jordan.............. 4th
92' Jordan.............. 3rd
93' Jordan.............. 6th
96' Jordan.............. 5th
97' Jordan.............. 2nd
98' Jordan.............. 7th
____________________________
Average................. 7.3
93' Shaq................ 21st
94' Shaq................ 9th
95' Shaq................ 1st
96' Shaq................ 2nd
97' Shaq................ 11th
98' Shaq................ 4th
99' Shaq................ 7th
00' Shaq................ 10th
01' Shaq................ 9th
02' Shaq................ 9th
03' Shaq................ 5th
04' Shaq................ 4th
05' Shaq................ 11th
06' Shaq................ 17th
07' Shaq................ 18th
08' Shaq................ 1st
09' Shaq................ 3rd
10' Shaq................ 6th
11' Shaq................ 4th
_________________________
Average Rank....... 8.0
98' Duncan........... 12th
99' Duncan............ 6th
00' Duncan........... 16th
01' Duncan........... 16th
02' Duncan........... 27th
03' Duncan........... 22nd
04' Duncan........... 19th
05' Duncan........... 14th
06' Duncan........... 10th
07' Duncan........... 11th
08' Duncan........... 21st
09' Duncan........... 12th
10' Duncan............ 7th
11' Duncan............ 8th
12' Duncan............ 4th
13' Duncan............ 1st
14' Duncan............ 1st
15' Duncan............ 5th
16' Duncan............ 3rd
___________________________
Average................. 11.3
10' Curry................ 5th
11' Curry................ 7th
12' Curry................ 9th
13' Curry............... 15th
14' Curry................ 7th
15' Curry................ 1st
16' Curry................ 1st
17' Curry................ 1st
18' Curry................ 1st
19' Curry................ 1st
20' Curry................ 9th
21' Curry................ 1st
22' Curry................ 5th
23' Curry................ 1st
24' Curry................ 4th
25' Curry................ 5th
___________________________
Average................. 4.6
16' Jokic................. 14th
17' Jokic................. 2nd
18' Jokic................. 5th
19' Jokic................. 2nd
20' Jokic................. 4th
21' Jokic................. 5th
22' Jokic................. 3rd
23' Jokic................. 2nd
24' Jokic................. 3rd
25' Jokic................. 1st
__________________________
Average................. 4.1
80' Bird.................. 8th
81' Bird.................. 7th
82' Bird.................. 7th
83' Bird.................. 7th
84' Bird................. 14th
85' Bird.................. 6th
86' Bird.................. 2nd
87' Bird.................. 2nd
88' Bird.................. 2nd
90' Bird................... 1st
91' Bird................... 8th
92' Bird................... 9th
_____________________________
Average................ 6.1
04' Lebron............. 8th
05' Lebron............. 6th
06' Lebron............ 24th
07' Lebron............ 15th
08' Lebron............ 25th
09' Lebron............ 20th
10' Lebron............. 6th
11' Lebron............ 26th
12' Lebron............ 21st
13' Lebron............. 7th
14' Lebron............ 11th
15' Lebron............ 10th
16' Lebron............ 13th
17' Lebron............ 13th
18' Lebron............. 12th
19' Lebron............ 11th
20' Lebron............ 10th
21' Lebron............. 15th
22' Lebron............ 17th
23' Lebron............ 15th
24' Lebron............. 5th
25' Lebron............ 13th
__________________________
Average................. 13.8
Lebron is bad at team assists by virtue of having team assist rankings that are twice as much as dynasty guys like Jordan, Curry, Kareem, and Shaq... Among high-scorers, there's a negative correlation between high individual assists and team assists.
It's pure math - Luka, Lebron and anyone that scores high amounts at low-assisted rates will have many unassisted buckets that prevent a high average ranking in team assists.. Since 1997, high-scorers with low-assisted rates produced teams that ranked 18th in assists on average.
The weaker ball movement of low-assisted 1st options is why every dynasty and dominant champion required highly-assisted 1st options, who produce high-assist teams and foster great ball movement that all dynasties have.
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The historical record of Lebron's inferiority to MJ and others
Lebron was never the 1st option on a "dynasty" that mostly won for a material stretch of 5+ years, or a "dominant champion" that had a title run of 5 losses or less - he can't produce this highest caliber of basketball (dynasty or dominant champion) because they require highly-assisted 1st options, who led 4 of 4 dynasties and 12 of 12 dominant champions since 1997 (when the assisted rate statistic began tracking).
Highly-assisted 1st options produce higher-assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty has, while low-assisted 1st options with below 40% assisted rate (ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka, SGA etc) have never been the 1st option on a dynasty or dominant champion.
Mate, stop repeating the same thing every post. It's over. You lost.
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Basketball Math
High-scorers with low-assisted rates of below 40% = high volume of unassisted buckets = teammates standing around in spot-up roles = lower teammate assists and lower average rankings in team assists + zero teammate development and bad chemistry = inferior brand of ball that doesn't produce the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions) + perennial underachievement of favored rosters (most losses with preseason favorite & Finals teams, plus bevies of losses with all-star teammates, homecourt and top seeds) = Mount Rushmore of Overrated Players (high-scoring, low-assisted ball-dominators like bron, oscar, plus sidekicks that were ordinary producers but inflated by the winning spotlight to All-NBA and all-time status like Pippen, Klay and Pau).
Matt R. , fidstar, (fallguy don't reply because I'm not addressing you -- in fact I'm done discussing anything with you itt. Like fidstar said: You lost. Sorry, but it's true.)
Can LeBron really still be criticized for "teaming up" with Wade and Bosh? Don't you want to do activities and if you can -- work with your closest buddies? Doesn't that make LIFE more FUN?
It's not like he teamed up with random guys who were very good at basketball. He teamed up with 2 of his closest friends -- who all had a common goal in mind. To WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS. And they won 2 out of 4 years, which should be commended!
Plus throw in the fact that they all sacrificed and took LESS MONEY to fit UNDER the salary cap -- and shouldn't that be seen as a NOBLE PURSUIT of a championship? Which should be praised and not ridiculed!!!
Stop pretending because you aren't fooling anyone - no one has explained how low-assisted players like Lebron and Luka can fit into an offense that doesn't use low-assisted players like the triangle.
Everyone in the triangle is capable of near 50% assisted rate or higher, and this is the case for players in ANY high ball movement system that produces high team assists like the Warriors or Bulls - they didn't use players whose assisted rate peaked at 30-40% (point guard roles)... They especially didn't use point guards at high-scoring levels, which produces high volume of unassisted buckets that lower the team's average ranking.
And it's already been confirmed that Lebron and Luka can't transform into off-ball players because they DIDN'T when paired with Brunson, Ingram, Hughes, Porzingas, Love, Bosh, Westbrook and many other... They had bad fits and drastically underachieved because they obviously can't do what you guys wish and play off-ball... Finally, why haven't any coaches run a ball movement system with Luka, Lebron, Westbrook, Harden, SGA, Ant and other high-scoring low-assisted players in the history of basketball??.... Why is it only the highly-assisted players that have the ball movement systems, dynasties, and dominant champions, such as Shaq, Jordan, Curry, Jokic, Tatum, Dirk, and all the dominant champions./dynasties listed earlier??... So you guys are just wrong, and can't accept it.. Awww... so sweet.
You're lying because Matt's posts are delusional, refuted, and kind of childish - I did him the service of responding to him and the moderator placated him but get real.
Lebron was never the 1st option on a "dynasty" that mostly won for a material stretch of 5+ years, or a "dominant champion" that had a title run of 5 losses or less - he can't produce this top caliber of basketball (dynasty or dominant champion) because they require highly-assisted 1st options, who led 4 of 4 dynasties and 12 of 12 dominant champions since 1997 (when the assisted rate statistic began tracking).
Highly-assisted 1st options produce higher-assist teams and foster the great ball movement that every dynasty has, while low-assisted 1st options with below 40% assisted rate (ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka, SGA etc) have never been the 1st option on a dynasty or dominant champion
Matt R. , fidstar, (fallguy don't reply because I'm not addressing you -- in fact I'm done discussing anything with you itt. Like fidstar said: You lost. Sorry, but it's true.)
I don't need you anymore - the argument and math has been done and vetted (see previous posts above).
And btw, anyone intelligent can see that Matt's responses (the thread title) are unintelligent, somewhat childishly-written, filled with delusional falsehoods, and don't address any of the points being made about Lebron's inferiority, such as how low-assisted players like Lebron and Luka can fit into an offense that doesn't use low-assisted players like the triangle.
Everyone in the triangle is capable of near 50% assisted rate or higher, and this is the case for players in ANY high ball movement system that produces high team assists like the Warriors or Bulls - they didn't use players whose assisted rate peaked at 30-40% (point guard roles)... They especially didn't use point guards at high-scoring levels, which produces high volume of unassisted buckets that lower the team's average ranking.
And it's already been confirmed that Lebron and Luka can't transform into off-ball players because they DIDN'T when paired with Brunson, Ingram, Hughes, Porzingas, Love, Bosh, Westbrook and many other... They had bad fits and drastically underachieved because they obviously can't do what you guys wish and play off-ball... Finally, why haven't any coaches run a ball movement system with Luka, Lebron, Westbrook, Harden, SGA, Ant and other high-scoring low-assisted players in the history of basketball??.... Why is it only the highly-assisted players that have the ball movement systems, dynasties, and dominant champions, such as Shaq, Jordan, Curry, Jokic, Tatum, Dirk, and all the dominant champions./dynasties listed earlier??... So you guys are just wrong, and can't accept it.
