QQ's pre flop decision.

If CO jams and BTN calls off (which would be a punt with AKo I think) you should turbomuck QQ imo. You won the max as played. Flipping with dead money is always a win.

Awkward stack depth to 4B to any size that doesn't pot commit us.

If it's a choice between going small and being able to fold to a 5B jam, but thereby giving opponents a good price to call, or going bigger and not being able to fold to a 5B jam, or just jamming, I think betting bigger >> jamming >> betting small.

My thinking is that any halfway decent player is going to see we can fold if we 4B to less than 1/3 of our stack, and will jam with a wider range, a lot of which we beat. I'd rather just 4B bigger, and plan to get it stacks in on most flops if we get called.

What do you mean he will jam with a wider range? That sounds perfect. We're not 4betting smaller to fold QQ to a jam. We 4bet smaller so he continues wider and to give him the illusion of fold equity with AK.

Also, we should not plan on jamming most flops. But we can call off if we get jammed on over our smaller bet and we have an overpair. Just study 4bet pots.

I was referring to the earlier post(s) suggesting we may want to 4B-fold if V 5B-jams:

I read the discussion in the thread to be mostly about what size OP should 4B, given that he's only starting out $300 effective, and there's been a 3B to $35, where any "normal" 4B size is going to be over 1/3 our starting stack, and thereby pot-commit us. So the options would seem to be 4B to less than 1/3 our starting stack, 4B to more than 1/3 our starting stack, and just 4B-jam.

I think it would be a disaster to 4B to a smaller size and then fold, if that smaller 4B size leads either of our opponents to perceive that we're going to fold if he jams, and therefore he can jam with a wider range, including hands we beat. It doesn't matter if we beat a lot of V's jamming range, if we're planning to fold.

Taking a smaller size with a plan to fold to a jam could possibly induce V to jam, precisely because it looks like we're going to fold.

My preferred solution to the OP's problem would be to 4B to a normal size, even if it pot commits us. I don't want to give our two opponents a good price to call our 4B when we'll be playing the rest of the hand OOP, and possibly multi-way. I also don't think we should 4B-jam over a $35 3B, when only better hands are likely to call.

Even though it's fairly face-up, I'd rather just 4B to $140-$150, and get the rest in pre if either V wants to 5B, or get it in on the flop, if either V calls, considering that we'll be going to the flop with less than 0.5 SPR. If we get jammed on, and lose, so be it. We could be having this discussion about KK, and no one would suggest we 4B-fold.

If we're going to be pot-committed by 4B'ing to more than 1/3 of our starting stack, especially 1/2 our stack, then I'd think we'd want to get the rest in on most flops.

That doesn't necessarily mean we're jamming any flop first to act. I'm not ruling it out, but if the scenario is that we 4B pre, and got flat called, then I'd think jamming on most flops - basically any flop with no over-cards to our QQ - is going to be the optimal play, rather than checking, when our opponents are likely to just check back with their unpaired over-cards and lower PP's that flat called pre.

Even if we 4B to a smaller size, say less than $100, and get called, the SPR is going to be around 1 or less on the flop. At that SPR, we want to get it in on the flop with all our over-pairs to the board.

And it's a disaster if we have two opponents with AX and KX in their pre-flop calling range, because we only 4B to $80, and the flop comes with an A or K, and we have to just check-fold, after investing over 25% of our starting stack, if they would have folded pre to a 1/3-1/2 stack 4B.

Maybe 4B'ing to a size that pot commits us pre isn't the highest EV approach on paper. But it seems like we're faced with three not-fantastic options, and I think 4B'ing to $140-$150 is more likely to lead to our opponents making big mistakes than betting less than $100 or jamming.

To be clear, I said maybe we fold if both players jam, not if just one jams, especially button.

Understood. I was responding to the discussion in general, not your post specifically.

That said, I still don't like 4B'ing small, for the reasons given. And I think 4B'ing small with a plan to fold if they both jam is still problematic, given the small 3B size here.

If we 4B small, maybe V1 sees an opportunity to steal the pot, especially when V2 basically min-clicked it with his 3B sizing, and he jams with ATs. Maybe V2 thinks V1 is FOS, and decides to call light with JJ.

So we fold, and then we want to lay down in traffic when they roll over their hands.

I think that smaller 3B size is indicative of a weaker hand, and that opponent is making a mistake by taking that sizing. But I don't want to give both V's a good price to call by 4B'ing to $80, nor do I want to induce them to jam wide because they perceive us as weak, if we're planning to fold in that scenario.

Don't get me wrong. I don't like this spot, or any of our options. But given three less than awesome choices, I like the idea of betting to $140-$150 better than betting less than $100 or jamming.

We are 4betting. Our range is insanely strong. The fact that the bet is small doesn't prevent people from giving people a tough decision. "ZOMG, we are giving them a good price to flat vs our AQs+, KQs, JJ+ range!".

4bet sizing is supposed to be smaller than 3bet sizing, not only because our range is stronger, but because we don't have a problem setting up a favorable SPR to play for stacks. If anything, if you make the 4bet too big, your SPR becomes absurdly small and you have no wiggle room.

This is a 2/3 game. Population doesn't 3bet more than 3-4% when it should be 3betting 10-11%. The same is true of pop tendencies in 5 bet pots. If people jam here, they are very very very tight, the occasional spazz notwithstanding.

2.2-2.3x cold 4b and less than 1/3 of stack has been around for years and it's a sound strategy. It's - not - wrong. And you’re coming up with some pretty crazy doomsday scenarios there.

Never said 4B'ing small was wrong. I said I liked it the least of all our options, given our stack depth.

I don't think I'm coming up with "crazy doomsday scenarios". I think if we 4B to less than $100, we're either getting called by one or both opponents, or we're getting jammed on, and I'm not convinced we're always going to fold, nor that we should always fold, when we 4B to such a small size when starting out 100bb effective.

I think the problem is rooted in CO's min-click 3B size. If he made it $45, we'd still need to figure out what size our 4B should be, but at least we wouldn't be considering less than $100 for our 4B size (would we be?), and we wouldn't need to consider if CO's 3B was FOS because of the sizing, or if he might be sitting there with AA, praying someone 4B's.

4B'ing to 2.2-2.3x seems fine, if CO had 3B to $45, and / or if we were starting out with $500 or more effective. It seems too cute when he basically min-clicked it, and I think we're inviting trouble if we contribute to the shenanigans by 4B'ing small from OOP and potentially going to the flop multi-way.

I don't see what "2/3" has to do with anything here. I see guys 5B-jamming for 100bb with worse than QQ at 1/3 and 2/5.

If you guys want to 4B to $80-$90, whether you're folding to a 5B jam or not, okay, do that. Hope it works out for you.

If I'm hero here, I'm 4B'ing to at least $100, if not $120 or more. At which point, we're pot committed, and can't fold. If we're not folding to a 5B jam, then I think we're better off going even larger, like $140-$150, to get more money into the pot pre-flop, and charge our opponents more to call with their Ax and Kx combos.

I like the idea of possibly an odd number here like $79, 87 or 94. I don't like 100 or over here with the table not that I could see folding to a jam with 100BB and a good flip to double up or even triple up. I always like to do some kind of off weird number instead of straight 5 dollar levels it has worked well for me in the past to not get jammed. I think for a lot of GTO players an odd bet size like this makes them think you really thought about the percentage of the pot vs the size of the bet to get an exact EV spot. I think anything over the 100 is going to be a straight up fold or jam situation which you can't hate a jam here, but I think you certainly want to extract more getting information via flop.

side note :
Do you recall how the 3! Villain raised? did he announce the raise or put it in neat little stacks or flick/toss in anything that he did previously or something that he didn't do previously? I play a lot of my hands based on my reads more then the cards because I spend so long at the table just observing players before I really get involved in playing.