A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL
A Clueless NL Noob Reaches 1000 Hours of Live 1/3 NL
Hi, I’m gobbledygeek! I’ve just reached 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL!
I think any regulars know to stay away from GG. He is difficult to exploit because he will just fold when he knows to fold. I am not a fan of the way he plays, but it is working for him. The type of players who just sit and wait for good hands seem to win all the time versus guys who are trying to crush them somehow and get tilted in their efforts. I see it all the time. It is not crushing the game, but it's steady and it pays.
again, when you can put your opponent on a very narrow range then you have a massive advantage imo
My very strong sense from both solver study and from playing the game is that range proportionality is more important for unexploitability than range width. It's harder to play against 3.5% of hands that contains AQs than against 10% of the hands that doesn't contain A5s. If two different players are equally incapable of showing up with a bluff other than a super nutted draw, those nutted draws are going to do more to balance a narrow range than a wide one.
(That last sentence probably doesn't apply to GG much because I don't think he ships even the very nutted draws very often, and in actuality it's just a lot of TPGK+).
Now playing more hands more aggressively helps you achieve the "optimal" part of game theory optimal, but I think (for example) l/rring 3.5% of hands is going to get a comparable amount of chips in the middle as r/f'ing 10% of hands. Same goes for playing a MSS and cramming all your chips in the middle every time you hit TPGK+.
It's sub-optimal in a lot of ways (first and foremost in not buying in for the full amount in a high rake game), but no less optimal than a lot of the BSS strats that people play poorly.
Lol'ed, although couldn't figure out if I was Tyson (I'm definitely not) or you?
Earlier this year, I was involved in this HU hand against a young guy who I'm guessing is top 3 in the pool. He arrived on the scene a couple years (maybe more?) before Covid and as far as I understand it has been doing this full time. So I've been playing with him for probably at least a half dozen years, maybe more. The hand we played earlier this year is literally the only hand I can ever remember playing against him.
I mean, our room isn't large: only 7 tables, with 3 to 4 tables running being the average. And although I leave earlier now than I used to (typically maxing out at 6:30pm), as of only a ~year ago I was often staying until 9:30pm (with him mostly showing up in the early evening to play into the post midnight hours). But he's still very easy to avoid. We're sometimes on the same table, but typically not for long (he's aiming to get on the action table while I'm aiming to get on the under-the-radar table). He's tight and I'm tighter, so unlikely to be in the same hand to begin with. I don't mind sitting OOP to him when sitting on my shortstack, but if I'm deep I'm never sitting OOP to him at his table. And meanwhile he's going to have a difficult time picking me apart even with his massive skillz advantage and my easily definable range, cuz what's he gonna do? Raise my shortstack limp to isolate? He'd better have a monster (cuz it's likely I do). Or overlimp and outplay me where I'm protected in a 6way limped pot? He's of course way too good to actually lose money to me. But I can avoid losing money to him (and other better players) fairly easily with good table/seat selection and stack management.
So if you were part of my pool, there's a very good chance we'd hardly ever be involved in the same hand, especially HU, especially deep, especially with me OOP.
Spoiler
The one and only HH in 6+ years of playing together that I can recall:
A fish limps. He raises the Button. I just flat QQ in the SB to hopefully invite the fish along, but he disappoints. HU to Axx flop. I check/call a small bet. He checks back blank turn/rivers and tables AJo to scoop. Mistakes probably made by both of us on various streets but we both move on with our lives and await our next clash in 2030 (if we're both still around).
Glocalhideandgoseekchampion15yearsrunningG
Yeah, kinda outsmarted myself on that one. Top 10 smartest in room too... so good room, ldo. 😀
GsurprisinglyeasytoutsmartmyselfG
do you have wr of that last 4 years? and any big changes youve seen?
assumign you playing relatively around same number of hours
while i would rather wear gg's gimpsuit than play like gg doesi think what people are failing to understand is gg has found a game where his opponents do not adjust and exploit his very transparent play style - which is the main issue of being an uber nit, is that it makes you very exploitable, people can very reliably hand read him and profitably overfold to him and if they re
In smaller games people are playing bingo not poker and what you describe in the first paragraph might only be going through the mind of 1 out of 8 other people at the table. Paragraph two is what I adapted to. I am a fake OMC and end up crafting my image over months only to start stealing in crazy spots you would never in a million years expect me to show up with bluffs and I am sure if it was needed GG would end up doing the same thing. At the end of the day you can try and talk down towards the way he plays but its been working for a decade where hundreds of other studied "pros" have come and gone. "Im still here".
but yeah, that's why i was hesitant to outright say what you could do to exploit him
The only exploit is called not participating. 
I think people trying to look down their nose at GG are missing something about the nature of multiway play.
Let’s suppose you know very well how GG plays. You know him well enough to know when to fold to him. You even know him well enough to have a sense of when you can bluff him.
How do you intend to use this knowledge to stop him from winning if you are sitting in a game with him, 4 decent players, and then 2 loose-passives and 1 LAG who do not know his game?
The fact is, when GG enters a pot, you can either get out of his way or you can try to find a way to bluff him out. If you’re trying to bluff him out, though, you also have to get that bluff through the rest of the field, which is likely a losing proposition. And if you overfold to him, he’s still winning against the rest of the field who doesn’t adjust properly.
That logic explains why I still believe an old post by Princess Azula about how nits can beat and sometimes even crush low stakes. They use other players’ weaknesses to shield their own and then they print when they are strong. GG is just one example.
Doesn't even need to be multiway IMO.
Everyone who wants to look down their nose at GG needs to think deeply about this:
My very strong sense from both solver study and from playing the game is that range proportionality is more important for unexploitability than range width.
So preflop you are in this spot:
folds to...
MP GG limps with 50bb
folds to...
BTN H has 77 or JTs or ATs or AQo with 100bb+ as do the blinds
...normally this is the easiest raise to 6x in the world, because fish raise good hands and limp bad ... but GG isn't anywhere near that bad, and is going to call a bunch of better hands or maybe just shove it in our face way more often than we'd expect.
Folding is obviously lol, and limping behind means we are playing in a spot that GG is way more familiar with than we are and causes us way more problems if the blinds aren't short too (this might well be the only viable action though).
My first guess at an exploit would be to raise small (like 3bb), and then HU range cbet most flops (for 2bb) ... but the first problem is that raising small is going to make the blinds auto call super wide, and now we are playing the limping game but for bigger pots and smaller SPRs. The second is that if it often gets HU and GG doesn't move to a different seat or table he's probably going to work out we don't really know wtf we are doing on the turn with most of our range after he calls flop.
With most people this kind of strat. breaks down as they get 200bb+ deep and we've barrelled 76s and got there, but AIUI GG is never deep enough to have that problem ... so when we get there we can't make enough for it to be worth it.
GG on our left is even more lol, when he's exploit just calling QQ to keep the EP fish who limped in.
How do you intend to use this knowledge to stop him from winning if you are sitting in a game with him, 4 decent players, and then 2 loose-passives and 1 LAG who do not know his game?
Decent meaning decent or decent meaning they’re not like sitting there eating paint chips? This is interesting stuff though. Can you guys quantify the edge you believe gg has on you?
GG's style of play is definitely winning in live poker in most lineups and definitely at all 1/3 games. However, it isn't the best style to win the maximum amount of money. I play a super tag style at 1/3 and 5/5 and win a lot of pots uncontested, pick up some PF and on the flop and turn. The issue with his style is he is winning very little pots PF. The rake is such a large percentage of the stacks/pots at this level that you're capping your winrate by limping and sometimes playing small pots.
Don't get me wrong, he's definitely winning and you're not really making money off him but to suggest he's hard to play against for any decent winning player is absurd. JMO.
Decent meaning decent or decent meaning they’re not like sitting there eating paint chips? This is interesting stuff though. Can you guys quantify the edge you believe gg has on you?
In the highly unlikely event that this is not a troll, the answer—which you should have been able to interpret from that post—is that I don’t think GG has an edge on me. I think if you put me in GG’s game with him and 7 other players in his player pool, we would both show a positive winrate against the field and I would hope mine would be greater. But even if it is, that doesn’t prevent him from winning.
In the highly unlikely event that this is not a troll, the answer—which you should have been able to interpret from that post—is that I don’t think GG has an edge on me. I think if you put me in GG’s game with him and 7 other players in his player pool, we would both show a positive winrate against the field and I would hope mine would be greater. But even if it is, that doesn’
GG might even slightly increase your winrate since hes basically making the table 8max instead of 9.
do you have wr of that last 4 years? and any big changes youve seen?
assumign you playing relatively around same number of hours
Last 4 years would be post Covid. Our room came back in November of 2021 (with a very small shutdown a couple of months later).
Since first coming back on November 7, 2021, I've won $30,856 over 1,422.75 hours for a winrate of $21.69 per hour = 7.23 bb/hr during that time.
Quite a few big changes. Maximum rake increased by $1 to $9 (my guess is we'll see $10 by the end of this year). Maximum BI was increased to $500 (although this doesn't typically doesn't affect too much of the daytime crowd BI amount, including my $200 shortstacking method). A high hand bonus drop of $1 was introduced (I've managed to win just 1 so far, while last week sitting beside the daytime pro who shipped his room-leading 34th). Last year the tables dropped to 9 handed (after being 10 handed forever).
I've actually decreased my hours. I used to average ~mid 500 hours per year but post Covid I've only been putting in low 400 hours. I used to play ~once a week (typically putting in quite a long session), but now I play ~twice a week (and put in much shorter sessions). All to do with lifestyle choices / fitting poker within my life appropriately.
Actually super shocked at my post Covid results and how they've maintained my historical winrate pace in spite of the conditions being far worse. My guess is just run good over lol sample size and I'm long overdue for a correction... noting as I write this I'm currently stuck for the year (barely) and possibly setting my record for longest session winstreak later this afternoon (I'm sitting on 5 losses right now, something I've only done once before in 889 sessions).
Not sure what all the other convo was about, I ain't getting involved in that.
Gweirdrandombump?G
A Clueless NL Noob Reaches 7000 Hours of Live 1/3 NL
Hi, I’m gobbledygeek! I’ve just reached 7000 hours of live 1/3 NL Texas Hold’em!
Only took me 16 years to do too. No big deal, didn’t even really try.
So sitting at $20.85 = 6.95 bb/hr (or $21.12 = 7.04 bb/hr if you include high hand promo bonuses / etc.) at exactly 7000 hours of 1/3 NL.
The lol 1000 hour breakdowns in all their glory / ugliness. In brackets are the totals which include high hand promo bonuses / etc. I also included the maximum rake + BBJ drop + high hand promo at the end of each segment.
1st: $28.98 ($29.08) (5+1)
2nd: $27.70 ($28.80) (5+1)
3rd: $13.75 (6+1)
4th: $12.34 (7+1)
5th: $19.21 (8+1)
6th: $23.61 ($23.85) (9+1+1)
7th: $20.40 ($20.81) (9+1+1)
Kinda semi-surprised I managed to keep above the $20/hr mark this last 1000 hours, although a very recent (and very unexpected) 20 session win streak out-of-the-blue (which destroyed my old record of 15 set in the glory days of 2013 a mere 13 years ago) certainly helped. Obviously increasing rake and high hand promo sucks (I’m getting destroyed at the high hand promo which was introduced in the 6th 1000 hour segment, only hitting 2… which is a mere 55 behind the room leader and undoubtedly an uncontested dead last amongst regs). But my biggest worry heading into this last 1000 hour segment was the fact that our room had changed to 9 handed tables (whereas all the other 1000 hour segments were put in at 10 handed tables). I don’t believe my strategy works as well at shorthanded tables (and for some reason 9 handed tables often seem to be 6 handed, noting there is no rake reduction given at shorthanded tables in our room) plus the blinds zipping around far more quickly than they did in the past doesn’t help either. But I’ve managed to hold my own so far… although over a short lol ~1000 hour sample size (where I’ve undoubtedly sunrun the last ~couple of hundred hours). But it is what it is, as that is the game I have available to me.
I’m sure I’ve mentioned this before (I think even in a previous 1000 hour update), but my favourite forum quote is from a long gone poster (at least around these parts) named Avaritia who once said, simply, “But I’m still here”. I think that would be the accomplishment I’m most proud of so far, in that: I’m. Still. Here. Since I started playing 1/3 NL back in 2010, I’ve shown up every week at the table, week in, week out, regardless of how things are going (both on and off the felt). I’ve never had to take a mental break or time off from the game or anything like that. I recently added a new column to my Excel spreadsheet which indicates how many days I’ve gone between my 1/3 NL poker sessions. In the past 16 years of playing 1/3 NL I’ve purposely (undoubtedly simply due to life scheduling) taken breaks of 15+ days a mere 3 times (durations of 20, 15 and 15 day, and obviously not including the imposed Coronaids shutdowns). You can certainly criticize a lot of different things about my method, how I approach the game, etc., but you can’t say I don’t show up, each and every week without fail, put my money where my mouth is, and play the game. I think that’s the thing I’m most proud of at this point, just… surviving it all, and reasonably well. Inb4 OP quitting pokr at 7001 hours, ldo.
Gbuti’mstillhereG
Awesome stats GG, I’ve always liked your style and am probably closer to your strategy than most posters. Kids these days don’t know how to limp raise.
Congrats gg. Hopefully you’re still enjoying poker as much?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As I'm about to move into my semi-retirement stage of life even more (I'm dropping down from my current 5 day / 25 hour work week to a 4 day / 20 hour week starting in July), I've been taking stock of how I should be spending my time / fitting everything into my life appropriately.
The last couple of years poker has been fit in as two sessions a week with sessions averaging about 5 hours, so aiming for upwards of ~500 hours per year (although I've typically been falling a little short of that). I think this is a good fit for me, and I see me continuing at that pace even when I fully retire.
I still very much enjoy the outing, the sociability, the lol stories / happenings / etc., and even the strategy itself (as lol as mine is), even if the money won (which more-or-less covers a holiday per year for me and the wife) is relatively meaningless.
I remember when I first started my regular casino poker 20 years ago in 2006, back in the virtually unbeatable 2/4 Limit game. Even though I fairly quickly came to the conclusion that there was no real money in that game, I also potentially saw myself whiling away some hours further down the line in retirement playing that silly game. Nothing much has changed in that regards, as I still enjoy the whole thing (the good, the bad and the ugly).
ETA: From what I've read in your LV thread, you've gotten a bit more interested / had more time + energy for the game lately?
GcluelesslifebalancenoobG
i can't imagine how tilting your winrate must be for so many here 😀
LOL @ all of the hate u have gotten over the years. That is a sick giraffe.
What have u done with yer winnings? Did u allocate a % for fun times with mrs gg? Boondoggle?
