GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
So u change the goal post and stats ?
Ah ok good …
But any other players that never achieve that either are top 2-3-4 on the list of fall guy ….just not Lebron in top is allowed because of hate shrug.
But they don't fail the "great team" test or great chemistry test, while Lebron fails those and also the test of winning with normal rosters or carrying the scoring load... Lebron just fails at all the criteria, so he isn't in top 10
Curry, Dirk, MJ, Bird - tons of guys had better regular seasons than Lebron ever had.But we know that SGA won't win a title this year because high-scoring primary ballhandlers (ball-dominators) cannot win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player and need "super-teams" of multiple franchise players, yet they still rarely win and mostly lose.. Of course we know that he'll neve
It's good to see you agree with that it can't be argued against, so you didn't try.
But they don't fail the "great team" test or great chemistry test,while Lebron fails those and also the test of winning with normal rosters or carrying the scoring load... Lebron just fails at all the criteria, so he isn't in top 10
So are your top 2-3-4 !
The rest is :
In the end lebron has more final mvp than any of your top 4 except mj and this argument :
U can invent any reasons u want but lebron , has the best player, won more then any of your top 10 except MJ !
That’s all I need buddy to destroy your arguments that lebron isn’t efficient enough -> the guy won —> it worked -> boohooo ….
But they produced great teams and chemistry, while Lebron did neither.
Top 10 criteria = great chemistry, and/or great teams, and/or carry scoring load, and/or win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player.
Lebron is 0 for 4 in fulfilling these 4 criteria, while Russell, Wilt and Kareem are 2 for 4 (great chemistry, aka many #1 assist teams, and also great teams)
So everyone is forced to agree with Rachel Nichols, Skip Bayless and other buffoons who vote on this stuff?
I would agree if a respected panel of Popovich, Kareem, Pat Riley, Jerry West (rip), and others voted on it.
But instead it's Rachel Nichols giving the 15' FMVP to Iggy or they robbed AD in 2020, and other nonsense.
AD carried the Lakers to a 2-0 lead in the 2020 Finals to guarantee victory against an injured opponent, and this was after leading the entire NBA in playoff scoring and dominating Jokic to make the Finals - this type of 2-way team leader is always given the benefit of the doubt in the Finals and given FMVP..
So no, FMVP and other media awards have zero bearing on the GOAT debate, so don't bother mention them again.. The only thing that matters is actual performance, and Lebron was carried for all his rings compared to most of my top 10 by virtue of having equal-scoring partners for every Finals win (never defeated max defensive attention)... Otoh, guys like MJ, Curry, Jokic, Kobe, Duncan and Shaq carried the load for 1 or more chips
Huh?.. AD turned the defense from worst to first and led the Lakers in scoring for the 2020 regular season and playoffs.. He also dominated Jokic to carry the Lakers to the Finals, and then carried Lakers to a 2-0 lead... So it's very good case that Lebron wasn't the best player for the 2020 ring because he was 2nd option and carried defensively..
So Lebron has 3 rings as the best player, which is equal or less than Russell, MJ, Kobe, Shaq, Kareem , Duncan - tons of guys .
Looks like you need more
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2020 Regular Season
AD................ 26.1 ppg... carried defense
Lebron'........ 25.3 ppg... zero defense
2020 Playoffs
AD................ 27.7 ppg (carried defense and crushed Jokic)**
Lebron'........ 27.6 ppg
** Carried Lakers to 2-0 lead in Finals vs injured opponent and foregone conclusion
^^^^ more than enough evidence to argue that Lebron wasn't the clear-cut best player for his 4th chip, so he has the same number of chips as the best player (3) as many guys like Shaq, Duncan, MJ, Kareem, Bird, etc
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Extended demonstrations of goat-caliber are required to become GOAT, which is how MJ became the first and last consensus GOAT:
1) goat modern dynasty
2) multiple 3-peats
3) 72 wins + title
4) goat frequency of titles and MVP's
5) goat MVP-caliber - i.e. MJ's MVP's had everything, while Lebron's MVP's lack titles, scoring title or DPOY
6) universally-recognized as the goat competitor
7) carried the "star category" of scoring, thereby needing less star help and allowing more room to sign defenders - i.e. by carrying the scoring load in every season, series and Finals, MJ dominated max defensive attention for his entire career, which is a caliber of dominance that no one else came anywhere near.
The mainstream media is a few hundred people, while Lebron's hardcore fans are a small percentage and no different than Kobe's - so aside from this small group of people, Lebron was never universally-recognized as GOAT like MJ is, specifically because his caliber was never goat caliber, as explained above, while also having bad labels like "colluder", "choker", "flopper" and losing reputation, i.e. he has losing records with every type of good teams, such as preseason favorites (3-4), all-star teammates (4-7), Finals teams (4-6), and 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), while also having a record 3 straight losses as the favorite from 09-11'.
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Lebron's record with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player
2004 - lottery
2005 - lottery with East All-Star Center on his team
2006 - 26.6 on 44% to lose in 7 games
2007 - 22 on 35% and 6 TO's
2008 - 26 on 35% and 5 TO's
2009 - upset loss of historic proportions (-700 favorite)
2010 - upset loss of historic proportions (meltdown)
2011 - goat choke
^^^ No wonder he gave up on winning with normal rosters of 1 franchise player and needed super-teams of 3 franchise players instead
He also needed an unprecedented 6 straight preseason favorites and sidekicks outplaying league MVP's, yet still rarely won and produced perennial losers with every cast (never a great team).
There's a lot of arguments in this thread, but I think we can all agree that SGA is currently having a better regular season than Kobe ever had.
At least we aren't going to argue about that.
I won all the arguments so you're introducing new ones and you're still wrong, lol.
SGA will never have a season that compares to Kobe's best... Kobe and MJ set the goat standard by automatically having a champion the instant they got a 1x all-star and winning with normal rosters of 1 franchise player - SGA is a simpleton ball-dominator, so he will fail this standard just like Wade and Lebron, who were forced to form a "super-team" of 3 franchise players on 1 team.
The loss to the Bucks shows the problem with Lebron's game... His teams are like "Okay bron-ball is gone, so let's figure out how to play together finally" - they have no chance to figure out real chemistry on the fly like that.
His ball-dominant skillset has zero brand of ball, chemistry or system when he's on the floor, so and the lack of brand development gets exposed when he goes out - the team must start from square one and begin developing chemistry for the first time... Bron-ball's "down-hill" skills aren't 5 man basketball or conducive for chemistry, so the team is put back at the start of training camp when he goes out.
If his skillset developed a real brand of ball or chemistry, then his teams would be at least .500 without him like the Spurs, Warriors or 90's Bulls without Curry/Duncan/MJ.
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Former teammate of Magic Johnson (George Lynch) explains why Magic and Lebron stop young players from growing (you can lock it up after this one McLovin)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/mag...
So why did Klay, Draymond, Pippen, Grant, and BJ grow leaps and bounds alongside MJ and Curry, but no one grows alongside high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron and Magic??
Again, the issue is ASSISTED RATE... If Magic and Lebron scored a healthy amount of assisted buckets, then teammates would have the ball in their hands and develop like Pippen and Draymond did alongside goat assist targets like Curry and MJ... MJ and Curry increased their teammates' assists, while the ball-domination of Magic or Lebron turns everyone into spot-up shooter and lowers their assists.. It's a night and day difference in how this develops teammates.
This is all intuitive, so it's revealing on your guys' part that you refuse to see obvious facts and accept reality... Lebron's unassisted or lowly-assisted skillset is simply inferior.. He lacks the skills to score quickly upon the catch (assisted buckets), such as elite footwork, repertoire, touch, expert jumpshooting skill, and fundamentals (i.e. headfake, upfake, feints, good jab step, etc).
So obviously fallguy's posts are best understood in the context of his mental health issues, but if you try to understand the whole assisted field goal % and jumpshooting skills required to build a dynasty and all that stuff from a basketball perspective, it comes down to:
MJ is better at catch-and-shoot long 2's than Lebron.
That's it. Nothing else falls under fallguy's incoherent ramblings. Lebron is clearly better near the rim, as a ball-handler or a rimrunner/cutter and you could argue that MJ had more of a bag especially relative to the era, those skills are mostly about generating unassisted field goals rather than assisted field goals, so they don't really matter. And obviously, as we know, MJ didn't shoot 3's particularly well or frequently. So what does that leave us with? Catch-and-shoot long 2's. That's what we're discussing here.
fallguy, what are you doing to rein in your conditions or are you completely off the leash?
I won all the arguments so you're introducing new ones and you're still wrong, lol.SGA will never have a season that compares to Kobe's best... Kobe and MJ set the goat standard by automatically having a champion the instant they got a 1x all-star and winning with normal rosters of 1 franchise player - SGA is a simpleton ball-dominator, so he will fail this standard just like W
Which Kobe regular seasons do you classif as better than this SGA season?
SGA is a Championship contender without an All Star teammate.
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Pure scoring off-the-catch
^^^ this type of assisted scoring puts the ball in teammates' hands and increases their assists and facilitates ball movement
You don't get it... Lebron's standard way to score is to give him the ball 25 feet from the hoop and let him start dribbling, while Jordan's scoring was 100% unpredictable - you never knew where he would catch the ball.
Jordan was simply galaxies better off-the-catch... You think the only way to score off-ball is a spot-up?,,, We aren't talking about just spot-ups - we're talking about all kinds of scoring and shot-making ability off-the-catch.. It's called "pure" scoring ability (instinctive and with great touch)... See the gifs above for examples.
His scoring was a completely different pace and attack than Lebron's plodding and predictable ball-domination:
^^^ Look at Jordan's goat jab step that allows this score - Lebron could never score that quick against a set defense.
The gif below shows that Jordan was always looked for the quickest way to score and it often required GREAT TOUCH and SUBTLETY that lebron lacks:
Jordan's off-ball skills and the resulting ball movement are the main reason for Jordan's superior team offenses, chemistry and vastly superior teams..
This matters because ball movement wins the attrition battle, so defenses are worn down and have less capacity for offense, while ball-domination lets a defense rest so they have more capacity to get hot offensively.
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..Former teammate of Magic Johnson (George Lynch) explains why Magic and Lebron stop young players from growing (you can lock it up after this one McLovin)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/mag...
lol at critizing Magic. He won 5 chips in 13 seasons (including his come back season at 36). One of the highest win rates in NBA history.
He kept winning even after a Top 3 GOAT's game declined and eventually retired.
Anyway. When he came back he played only 32 games. He was 36. He hadn't played in almost 5 years.
Despite that the Lakers got better being 22-10 when he played and 31-19 when he didn't play.
Not sure what your expectations are.
Which Kobe regular seasons do you classif as better than this SGA season?
SGA is a Championship contender without an All Star teammate.
2008 - 2010
SGA stifles Williams, while Curry and MJ elevated Wiggins/Pippen to all-star, or Kobe lifted Pau to All-NBA..
The common thread is that Curry, MJ and Kobe aren't ball-dominators with 25% assisted rate like SGA.
Having a leader that receives assists = great
Having a leader that delivers assists = holds everyone back
It doesn't even make sense on it's face, it's just so dumb. Everyone always getting the ball to Jordan doesn't make them better players magically.
Oh and Pippen sucks yet MJ elevated his game and developed him, same illogical hogwash.
lol at critizing Magic. He won 5 chips in 13 seasons (including his come back season at 36). One of the highest win rates in NBA history.He kept winning even after a Top 3 GOAT's game declined and eventually retired.Anyway. When he came back he played only 32 games. He was 36. He hadn't played in almost 5 years.Despite that the Lakers got better being 22-10 when he played and 3
This is Magic's teammate saying this.... He backed up everything I've said itt and it's telling that he included Magic and put him in the same pod as Lebron (ball-dominators) - this is further evidence that supports my top 10 that excludes both guys.
And the issue is assisted rate because the only reason that teammates don't have the ball in their hands and have lower APG is because Lebron and Magic score unassisted by teammates.... Otoh, the assisted scoring of MJ and Curry puts the ball in teammates' hands, so young ballhandlers like Pippen and Draymond can grow - it's clear as day and quite intuitive.
Having a leader that receives assists = great
Having a leader that delivers assists = holds everyone back
It doesn't even make sense on it's face, it's just so dumb. Everyone always getting the ball to Jordan doesn't make them better players magically.
Oh and Pippen sucks yet MJ elevated his game and developed him, same illogical hogwash.
The reason it doesn't make sense to you is because you're thinking about it in absolute terms, which isn't how it was presented.
Jordan wasn't just an off-ball player... He was good passer but could also play off-ball - he wasn't restricted to being mostly on-ball or mostly off-ball... MJ and Curry had an even mix of both, so they fits with all teammates or systems.. Otoh, Lebron's skillset is weighted heavily towards ball-domination, and this focus doesn't fit as many teammates or systems - it turns everyone into spot-up shooter and stifles teammates, as George Lynch described.
It's funny how all the evidence proves me right, such as the needy teams, zero teammate development in 22 years (spot-up roles), perennial losing, and now teammates of Magic supporting my claims about ball-domination - yet you still have your head in the sand!!.. It's okay to admit that you were wrong about Lebron.
Pippen grew from a 7.9 ppg rookie to Andre Iguodala-caliber, or if you think Iggy is insufficient, then maybe Larry Nance.
Similarly, guys like Grant and BJ grew from single digit rookies into meaningful producers.. Woolridge, Oakley and Sam Vincent achieved career highs alongside MJ.
Otoh, Lebron's skillset of unassisted buckets leaves everyone standing around and turns them into spot-up shooter, which prevents young player development, elite roster construction, chemistry and teams.. The spot-up roles also lower teammates' assists and produces low assist teams over time, which are the Achilles' heel of Lebron's game because every series loss of his playoff career shows deficits in team assists.. The only exception is the 11' Finals, so the only time that his team lost while out-assisted the opponent is widely-considered the biggest choke of all-time.
Pippen grew from a 7.9 ppg rookie to Andre Iguodala-caliber, or if you think Iggy is insufficient, then maybe Larry Nance.
Similarly, guys like Grant and BJ grew from single digit rookies into meaningful producers.
Wow so guys went from being rookies to improving. That's crazy.
Otoh, Lebron's skillset of unassisted buckets leaves everyone standing around and turns them into spot-up shooter, which prevents young player development, elite roster construction, chemistry and teams.
5-Out is modern basketball. Those sweet long twos aren't coming back.
