GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Again so dumb and illogical.
If they'd lost a round earlier they're ACTUALLY BIGGER WINNERS.
It's all reverse-engineered hero worship.
Wow so guys went from being rookies to improving. That's crazy.
5-Out is modern basketball. Those sweet long twos aren't coming back.
Lebron never grew single-digit rookies to meaningful producers, so he has zero teammate development in 22 seasons.. It's because his skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter, which prevents young player development and elite roster construction.
And Lebron rarely wins regardless of cast, coach, or era.. So it doesn't matter if we're talking threes or long 2's - Lebron will have losing records with every type of good team, such as preseason favorite, Finals teams, all-star teammates, or top seeds (1 or 2 seeds) - he also had a record 3 straight upset losses from 09-11' (before the 3-point revolution).. The guy is just a loser.. and it's okaaaay.. it's a free country (well, pretty free).
Again so dumb and illogical.
If they'd lost a round earlier they're ACTUALLY BIGGER WINNERS.
It's all reverse-engineered hero worship.
Everyone knows that low seeds lose in the 1st Round, so that's nothing... Otoh, Finals teams are good teams that won their conference, so having a losing record with good teams is bad...
And again, the "bron-ball" skillset has a losing record with every type of good team, such as preseason favorites (3-4), Finals teams (4-6), all-star teammates (4-7), 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), and an unprecedented 3 straight losses as the favorite from 09' to 11'.
Lebron never grew single-digit rookies to meaningful producers, so he has zero teammate development in 22 seasons..
Austin Reaves went from 7.3 to his current 18.9.
And that's just one. You're obviously wrong and I could find and cite others.
Carlos Boozer scored 10.0 (there's your magical 40% style cutoff) and he turned into a multiple time all-star. 10.0 and then 15.5 before he went to Utah. (Again not LeBron's fault that Cleveland is inept and let him go for free bc they were trying to angle-shoot him.) Such great development.
JJ Hickson went from 4.0 to a guy they wouldn't move for Amare Stoudamire and averaged 13.8 two years later. According to you Rui has developed into a #2 scorer with LeBron after sucking in Washington and being had for second round picks. Etc, etc, etc.
One more thing to put a little bow tie on this thing and put Lebron to bed - Lebron created the Spurs and Warriors dynasties by losing to them 5 times... Otoh, Jordan stopped dynasties by BEING the dynasty.
Jordan could've lost to the Knicks from 92-94', or he could've lost to Blazers, Suns or Sonics and spearheaded their dynasties... Or he could've lost to the loaded Cavs in 88', 89', and 93', or the Jazz in 97' and 98'... Any of these losses could've began a dynasty for someone else like Lebron did.
One more thing to put a little bow tie on this thing and put Lebron to bed - Lebron created the Spurs and Warriors dynasties by losing to them 5 times... Otoh, Jordan stopped dynasties by BEING the dynasty.
MJ created the back to back Pistons titles and fostered the Celtics and Lakers dynasties.
This is so stupid. You know this, right?
AD and Reaves arrived on the Lakers together in 2020, and AD proceeded to lead the team on both sides of the ball to win a title - so his highly-assisted game developed Reaves, while Lebron's ball-domination has stopped him from being an all-star and going to the next level like Pippen, Wiggins, Klay or Draymond, or even having a nice championship run like Poole.
And Boozer barely played with Lebron, while JJ Hickson never became anything and Rui's numbers are the same as in Washington... If this is the best you can do in 22 years, then I rest my case..
MJ created the back to back Pistons titles and fostered the Celtics and Lakers dynasties.
This is so stupid. You know this, right?
Losing in the 1st Round doesn't create dynasties, but losing 5 times in the Finals to the Spurs and Warriors created those dynasties.
When Jordan and Lebron got help, Jordan produced a dynasty, while Lebron produced dynasties for others.
Lebron was a perennial loser when he got help, while MJ was a perennial winner.
AD and Reaves arrived on the Lakers together in 2020, and AD proceeded to lead the team on both sides of the ball to win a title - so his highly-assisted game developed Reaves
lol of course
Losing in the 1st Round doesn't create dynasties.
When Jordan and Lebron got help, Jordan produced a dynasty, while Lebron produced dynasties for others.
Lebron was a perennial loser when he got help, while MJ was a perennial winner.
lol of course
LeBron has never done this!
Show that LeBron has in fact done this.
Aha, I was right!
Brought to you by the same guy where Lakers win without LeBron = LeBron sucks, Lakers lose without LeBron = LeBron sucks.
It's almost like you're super biased.
Yeah, I'm sorry the facts don't work out the way you want.. AD wouldn't enter the equation if Lebron could carry the scoring load... But since AD led the Lakers in scoring for the 2020 season and remained a co-leader, then he can get credit for Reaves developing...
And he SHOULD get the credit since he's the guy with the highly-assisted skillset that can develop players, while Lebron's unassisted scoring and ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles and never developed anyone.. Highly-assisted players like Curry, MJ and Jokic have a big track record of player development, while high-scoring ball-dominators like Luka and Lebron have zero examples of teammate development.
"Facts" definitely always work out the way you want them to tho.
Losing in the 1st Round doesn't create dynasties, but losing 5 times in the Finals to the Spurs and Warriors created those dynasties.
Losing in the first round = good
Losing in the Finals = bad
Okay Patrick Dumont
LeBron has never done this!
Show that LeBron has in fact done this.
Aha, I was right!
Brought to you by the same guy where Lakers win without LeBron = LeBron sucks, Lakers lose without LeBron = LeBron sucks.
It's almost like you're super biased.
AD grew Reaves, so you didn't provide a single example of anyone that grew alongside Lebron... Boozer didn't have a tenure alongside Lebron and played 1 year, while Rui's stats are the same as Washington.
So the point stands - high-scoring ball-dominators have high volume of unassisted buckets that turn everyone into spot-up shooter, thereby preventing young player development or elite roster construction.. The spot-up roles also lower teammates' assists and produces low assist teams over time, which are the Achilles' heel of Lebron's game because every series loss of his playoff career shows deficits in team assists.. The only exception is the 11' Finals, so the only time that his team lost while out-assisted the opponent is widely-considered the biggest choke of all-time.
It's okay to lose with bad teams (Jordan)
It's bad to lose with good teams (Lebron)
Hope that makes sense... Jordan was unbeatable the instant that he got a little help, while Lebron was a perennial loser that has losing records with every type of good team, such as preseason favorites (3-4), Finals teams (4-6), all-star teammates (4-7), 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), and an unprecedented 3 straight losses as the favorite from 09' to 11'.
LeBron's teams were bad, sorry that he raised their level more than Jordan did to the point you think they were good.
As you know, LeBron controls a team more than Jordan where Jordan relies on his teammates.
Higher ceiling with Jordan, higher floor with LeBron. That's just a fact but you'll try to wiggle your way out of it while convincing literally no one.
Jordan on Bulls = 57 Wins, Jordan leaves Bulls = 55 Wins
LeBron on Cavs = 61 Wins, LeBron leaves Cavs = 19 Wins
You can twist however you want but those are the real facts of the states of their teams and their individual importance therein.
It's inarguable.
LeBron's teams were bad, sorry that he raised their level more than Jordan did to the point you think they were good.
Huh?.... The 2011 and 2014 Heat were preseason favorites and "Big 3" super-teams, while the 17' Cavs were also a Big 3... Then he lost with an all-star teammate from 2021-present, and also 2018 or 2009.. He was also lottery in 2005 and 2022 with an all-star, or in his prime (2019).
Lebron has a losing record with every type of good team, so how can you defend him?... He's a loser with preseason favorites (3-4), Finals teams (4-6), all-star teammates (4-7), 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), and an unprecedented 3 straight losses as the favorite from 09' to 11'.
Why can't you look at the facts yourself instead of regurgitating something you heard on TV??... 
Lebron needed the East all-star center and a player that was better than 1990 Pippen to make his first playoffs in 2006:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-DefenseBasketball-Reference.comLarry Hughes Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.comhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-DefenseBasketball-Reference.comScottie Pippen Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com
^^^ Jordan would've floor-raised that to a 3-peat... The East all-star center + 1990 Pippen = more help than Jordan ever had.
Lebron simply cratered Hughes, which meant that "1990 Pippen" became nothing, just like Westbrook, Ingram, D-Lo, and many more ballhandlers (IT, Rose, Clarkson, etc).
Despite having a 2x all-star center and "1990 Pippen", Lebron only won 45 games in 2008 before adding the all-star spacers that his stiff-arm needs in 2009 and 2010... It's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen as your THIRD option (Jamison) and better defensive rankings than the 1st three-peat Bulls... Jamison was a rare 20k scorer that outplayed Lebron in the 07' 1st Round with 32/10 on 47%..
Accordingly, the 2010 Cavs were a 7th-year organic juggernaut, but became first the 60-win top seed to lose 2 years in a row... TLDR: he didn't floor-raise sh*t and drastically underachieved in most postseasons, which is why he "decided" to start stacking the deck.
The 2011 Cavs lost their entire starting 5 that accounted for 52 ppg (Mo, Varejao, Shaq, Zydrunas, Delonte), while Lebron accounted for 30 ppg.. Team-hoppers GUT teams, so turnover of players and subsequent drop-off is no surprise.
Furthermore, the 2019 Cavs lost their #1 option to injury (Love), while the 2015 Heat were injured but nearly made the ECF in 2016... Then they made the Finals in 2020 and 2023 (with Kevin Love).
Again, stop listening to the lies on TV and look into the historical record yourself.
The biggest drop-off in history was when Pippen cratered the goat dynasty to 2nd Round loser and barely .500 in less than 18 months before MJ returned in 95..
Let that sink in.. Any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention quickly due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty as we saw in 1995.
This is Magic's teammate saying this.... He backed up everything I've said itt and it's telling that he included Magic and put him in the same pod as Lebron (ball-dominators) - this is further evidence that supports my top 10 that excludes both guys.And the issue is assisted rate because the only reason that teammates don't have the ball in their hands and have lower APG is bec
One teammate said something negative about Magic and you jump on it. Shall I find the 100 things his teammates have said that are good? By your logic, that means it proves everything you say is wrong.
One teammate said something negative about Magic and you jump on it. Shall I find the 100 things his teammates have said that are good? By your logic, that means it proves everything you say is wrong.
Lynch is just stating the historical record that ball-dominators don't develop teammates, so they need ready-made stars like Kareem, Worthy, Wade, AD, Luka, Kyrie, Love and Bosh.. They don't develop weak rookies like Klay, Pippen, Grant or Draymond.
It's absurd how much help ball-dominators need, and yet they don't go undefeated and mostly lose in the Finals (9-10)!!!.. Needing so much help is a primary reason that ball-dominators like Magic and Lebron aren't in my top 10... Here's a flow chart to help you out:
Ball-dominators ----> large volume of unassisted buckets ----> teammates standing around in spot-up roles ----> prevents elite roster construction, fits and chemistry -----> can't win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player
Lynch is just stating the historical record that ball-dominators don't develop teammates, so they need ready-made stars like Kareem, Worthy, Wade, AD, Luka, Kyrie, Love and Bosh.. They don't develop weak rookies like Klay, Pippen, Grant or Draymond.It's absurd how much help ball-dominators need, and yet they don't go undefeated and mostly lose in the Finals (9-10)!!!.. Needing
I mean you really had to scrape the bottom of the barrel for Lynch. The guy averaged less than 4ppg.
I know you have a soft spot for guys that sit on the bench and don't do anything, but you literally needed to go to one of the last guys on the bench when Magic was 36 years old to find someone that said something that can (at best) loosely be tied into one of your horrible theories.
For record keeping purpose Magic was hardly a high usage player for those Lakers.
2008 - 2010
SGA stifles Williams, while Curry and MJ elevated Wiggins/Pippen to all-star, or Kobe lifted Pau to All-NBA..
The common thread is that Curry, MJ and Kobe aren't ball-dominators with 25% assisted rate like SGA.
Okay. 2008-2010. Kobe's best years. Out of 22 years.
Here are the numbers for those 3 Kobe seasons and SGAs current season. Counting stats are per 100 possessions so there's no whinging about that. Kobe's are the first 3 numbers. Last one is SGAs. Bolded is the highest one for each category.
Points
36.5
37.8
35.9
45.9
Assists
6.9
6.9
6.7
8.7
Rebounds
8.1
7.4
7.1
7.2
Yay Kobe is competetive in one of them. I mean it's probably the least important of all the counting stats for guards. But yay!
Steal
2.4
2.1
2.1
2.5
Blocks
0.6
0.6
0.4
1.5
Turnovers
3.6
3.3
3.4
3.2
Yay Kobe won one! Oh ****, it's turnovers
Shooting splits
49.0/36.1/84.0
49.6/35.1/85.6
48.7/32.9/81.1
58.3/37.1/90.0
PER
24.2
24.4
21.9
30.9
WS/48
0.208
0.206
0.160
0.314
BPM
5.8
5.9
4.1
11.5
VORP (keeping in mind this is a counting stat and SGA's will improve as the season continues)
6.3
5.9
4.4
7.5
Games won by team
57
65
57
67 (Projected)
All Star Teammates
0
1
1
0
I mean it's not close.
Until SGA wins a title it's a moot point. It's all about the chips which is why MJ is the GOAT. That and his unassisted assisted off ball rate while carrying the team. 🤣
