GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
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Matt's evidence that Lebron can play in a ball movement system:
1) Matt's desire that he can, and preliminary internet searches don't pull up players and coaches openly trashing him and saying he can't
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Hey Matt. I wonder how many hours FG scoured the internet to not find any evidence? I mean if you were talking about someone from the 80s, I get it might be hard to find. But for LeBron, in an era where everyone has a voice, for a player who is constantly under the microscope and has more critics than anyone, it would be hard not to find anything.
^^^ That's horrible peak ability, and it certainly isn't good or elite for only 2 series - Pippen was the worst player in the playoffs against the Knicks by averaging 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter and 21.7 on 40% for the series.He had several historic chokes like the "sit out" game, or the "dumb foul" game, or a horrible game 7 as the final choke to cap off the biggest series o
Let’s back up again …. Your own freakn words again .
Fidstar was crapping on Butler's regular season numbers after I called Butler a franchise player, but Love/Bosh have those great regular season numbers... I only talked about Butler's playoff performance because it offsets his lackluster regular seasons.
In one post u said playoffs do not matter , then I showed u how bosh and love never did nothing in playoffs , then you say it is about regular season with 1 or season was enough …
Make your damn mind !
Which is it ?
Regular season , playoffs season , both ? What ??
It’s funny I’m not even arguing , I’m just using your own arguments and criteria and u get own by your own self lol …
22 ppg of system points and transition from Pippen is a horrible PEAK capability that isn't good enough to put other good players beneath him and build around.. This horrible peak capability doesn't compare to 22 ppg from Barkley of double-teams and team-carrying offense, which is a good FLOOR capability for a franchise player.Secondly, Pippen was an 7 ppg rookie and bench play
- lol about Duncan ?
- bosh only had once 24 ppg (2010) and that year he finished 9th scorer while pippen finish 8th lol as peak ??
So because nba played more defensively in the 90s , pippen get blame while he finish a better scorer vs his peers in peak then bosh , while pippen crushed bosh too in defense ?
Like did bosh ever had a “carrying load” in defense ?
Not only that , pippen suck so much he was the best scorer and defender of his team while leading them to a 55 win.
Love and bosh couldn’t even break .500 lol and didn’t play much defense or they simply suck lol.
Who cares about pippen rookie year ?
Pippen, Like love and bosh all reached All-stars in there 3rd years .
Love and bosh never reach as great a player as pippen ]on both side of the floor .
FG , you are just a real joke man , I’m done .
U are just a troll .
U can’t even agree with your own bs lol.
Ps: the last bolded part , yes bosh and love were so good making other players better like a franchise player they couldn’t break .500 lol.. (except one year for bosh .. )
The amount of crap you spew is funny .
Hey Matt. I wonder how many hours FG scoured the internet to not find any evidence? I mean if you were talking about someone from the 80s, I get it might be hard to find. But for LeBron, in an era where everyone has a voice, for a player who is constantly under the microscope and has more critics than anyone, it would be hard not to find anything.
You guys are asking for evidence that water is wet, which I gave you anyway.
Ball movement systems require elite off-ball players, which Lebron is not and everyone says that... So there's your proof that he can't play in a ball movement system, although none was needed to begin with.
In addition to everyone saying Lebron "needs" the ball and isn't elite off-ball as required for ball movement systems, there's the historical record of Lebron and no ball-dominators ever running one... Then there's the science and bball 101 that ball-dominance kills ball movement, and ball-dominators prevent ball movement by producing low assist teams - they literally lower everyone's assists and impose spot-up roles..
This is the evidence, although none was needed... But if you don't think this is evidence for someone that somehow didn't already know, then you aren't capable of being educated on this topic.. Regardless, nothing you can do will make Lebron a great off-ball player like Duncan, Curry, etc, as required of ball movement systems and great teams.. Now carry on your immature little game with Matt where you pretend no evidence was provided and that you don't know how basketball works.
Anyway I've used Butler vs Pippen as comps (even though Pippen is clearly better), because they are similar players. They are 2 way wings who's stats don't always back up the impact they have in a game.
Pippen can't score (system player), while Butler can score at elite levels and carry teams to the Finals.
There's no comparison - Butler is a franchise player while Pippen is a dunker
LeBron = Bad, bc can't fit in a system; 4 Rings (Choker)
Pippen = Bad, bc succeeds in a system; 6 Rings (Choker)
Butler = Good, bc elite scorer (?); 0 Rings (Franchise Player)
It's just logic.
- First Jimmy played with the Bulls and all their DRose era guys (along with Wade and Rondo at the end, two guys Bron won with), was discarded.
- Then he played with Minnesota and KAT (a TWOG fave), was discarded.
- Then he played with Embiid, was discarded (they prioritized signing Tobias).
- Then he played with Bam and Herro, was discarded (didn't want to give him an extension).
- Then he joined Steph and the Warriors.
I don't see him getting built around, I just see him constantly getting discarded and joining ready made teams.
Def fits your definition of a franchise player tho.
Guy has a career average of 18.2 and his one year peak was 23.9, everything else is 22 or lower. Definitely an elite scorer tho. And def not someone who wants the ball in his hands as a notoriously below average 3pt shooter who likes to drive and draw fouls or dish.
Can anyone find an example of fallguy telling the truth in this thread
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PLAYOFFS
REGULAR SEASON
^^^ Never compare Butler and Pippen again.
The TO's alone from Pippen given the much weaker scoring burden, smh..
The weaker scoring burden includes the open system buckets against no defensive attention vs Butler's dominant capability and commanding of real defensive attention, which sets the tone for the whole game - Butler is the "jordan" or "curry, and Pippen is the "klay" (or "pippen").
I don't see him getting built around, I just see him constantly getting discarded and joining ready made teams.Def fits your definition of a franchise player tho.Guy has a career average of 18.2 and his one year peak was 23.9, everything else is 22 or lower. Definitely an elite scorer tho. And def not someone who wants the ball in his hands as a notoriously below average 3pt
^^^ Nonsense... Butler quickly re-built the TWolves in 2018 compared to the prior year, and then built the 39-win Heat into a 2-time Finals team, while Pippen cratered the goat dynasty to barely .500 in less than 18 months because he isn't a franchise player that teams build around like Butler.
The reason Butler can build teams (and therefore be a franchise player) is because his elite scoring capability allows there to be good scorers below him, which gives the team maximum talent capacity to build... Specifically, Butler would still be the franchise player over a guy like peak Ben Simmons, while Simmons might supplant Pippen as 1st option or be a 1a/1b - this lowers the team's talent capacity compared to his presence as a clear-cut #2 alongside Butler... FYI - 30% of Pippen's playoff series were over 20 ppg compared to 60% for Butler, while Butler's peak capability was playing Lebron to a stand-still in the Finals, while Pippen's peak doesn't exist - he never dominated and was always massively-carried (system player).
Pippen's 15 to 20 ppg was built by system-learning to get open looks and also transition, so he was worse than Jeff Green outside the system and nowhere near a franchise player that gives a team sufficient talent-capacity to build.. People have always known this about Pippen and it wasn't remotely unexpected when he cratered upon leaving the triangle just a few months after winning #6... In hindsight, the proper perspective is to view most of Pippen's All-NBA's as ceremonial from being on the GOAT team.
Pippen can't score (system player), while Butler can score at elite levels and carry teams to the Finals.
There's no comparison - Butler is a franchise player while Pippen is a dunker
How u build winning team FG ?
With failed franchise players or great non franchise players ?
(I wonder which criteria u find is the most important
-> “franchise player” or “great player” to win o0)
What u consider a successful team or a player with a successful career?
A team/player having rings or a team/having having 0 rings ?
It’s funny that like all the franchise player criteria’s FG choose to use end up with player only winning while matching with lebron while at the same time lebron being a very bad player ….
It’s like you know , winning means nothing when Lebron wins but when Lebron loses it means everything !
Pippen had exactly one shot as a first option and he performed very well. Losing to the team that went to the Finals in 7. I mean it's better than Love ever did as a first option.
When a guy averages 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter and cries out for Mommy by pouting on the bench - it's clear that this guy wasn't cut out for this sh*t...
And that's without considering that his lack of scoring command and low peak scoring capability doesn't provide sufficient talent capacity for a team to build (good scorers can't go beneath him)... He simply can't be the focal point because there's nothing to focus on - he's mostly a transition player that Shaq said wasn't on scouting reports.
The list of chokes is mostly Pippen and Lebron, so yeah, they both have so many chokes that I forgot a bunch.
How u build winning team FG ?
With failed franchise players or great non franchise players ?
(I wonder which criteria u find is the most important
-> “franchise player” or “great player” to win o0)
What u consider a successful team and a player with a successful career?
A team/player having rings or a team/having having 0 rings ?
A great team is Jokic, KG, Derrick White, Horry and JR Rider
also, amazing how close their numbers are considering the degree to which Pippen deferred
thx for that
why is fitting into a system and being a great fit for it both such a great and horrible thing depending on the player you want to demean?
nvm, asked and answered
LeBron brilliant idea to take a break and let Doncic develop a Laker identity. Jordan would've punched Luka in the face and called him a loser after the first week.
also, amazing how close their numbers are considering the degree to which Pippen deferred
thx for that
Pippen wasn't a 1st option and the only reason he got to be 1st option was MJ's sudden retirement that handed the goat dynasty to Pippen.. He proceeded to embarrass himself as the lead guy in the playoffs and was barely .500 the next season.
In contrast to Pippen cratering the goat dynasty to barely .500, Jimmy Butler built the 39-win Heat to a 2-time Finals team as a franchise player is supposed to do... The common thinking is that Butler is comparable to elite 1st options like Jordan or Kobe, so the comparison to secondary scorers and non-franchise guys like Wiggins, Middleton or Pippen is absurd.
Pippen is more comparable to Draymond, who is better by virtue of superior passing, rebounding, defense, dog, leadership, alpha, clutch, enforcer, "heart of the team", and equal scoring ability outside the triangle.. Pippen is a carried bum in all of these areas, while Jordan carried all of them (including enforcer above), and he even co-led the rebounding with Rodman in the 97' Playoffs - both guys averaged 8 RPG, while MJ carried the scoring and passing loads as well.
Pippen averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter of the 94' 2nd Round - let that sink in - he simply wasn't a 1st option and it was an embarrassment to watch him in that role.. Everyone cringes when they hear about his playoff embarrassment.. Why don't you watch the 4th quarter of those games and see what a stick-figure, stiff scorer Pippen was - he couldn't score and had worst-ever efficiency on numerous title runs, so Jordan won with the biggest bricklayer/lane-clogger in history - i.e. a dunker that required massive carrying in every series.
Are you capable of not lying?
Pippen could've been an equal or leading scorer for any playoff run alongside Jordan just like every other sidekick in history has done alongside the 1st option.
Wade led Lebron in scoring for the 11' Playoffs, or AD led for the 20' Playoffs, or Kyrie was an equal-scoring partner and closer in 16'... Worthy led the Lakers for the 87-91' Playoffs... McHale led for the 86' Playoffs... Kobe led for the 01' and 02' Western Playoffs.... So literally everyone in history had teammates lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, except MJ led all teammates by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES... Let that sink in... (edit: there are 3 series where MJ led by 9, 8, and 4 points, otherwise every series was 10-30 ppg margin over all teammates).
So you're completely full of sh*t by saying that was Pippen's first shot and you actually highlighted what a horrible scorer he was compared to every other sidekick in history that were "1b's" and often led the scoring.. In addition to being the only sidekick that was always carried for every playoff run or series, history shows that anyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to get 25 ppg or FMVP for at least 1 of the Finals, except Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg... Pippen was also drastically outplayed against the same opponent by everyone (see next post for apples to apples comparisons).
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Pippen and Reggie Miller played the same playoff opponent 6 times, with Miller drastically outplaying Pippen 6/6 times despite equal or less usage:
R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage
R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage
R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage
R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage
R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage
R Miller 98' ECF................. 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF................. 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage
Alcoholic Kemp took Zydrunas Illgauskas to the 98' Playoffs and then outplayed Pippen against the Pacers (Bron missed playoffs with Zydrunas in 04' & 05' btw):
S Kemp vs 98' Pacers....... 26.0 on 47%
Pippen vs 98 Pacers......... 16.6 on 39%
It's a low bar to match or exceed Pippen's low peak capability, as Robert Horry showed in 95':
FINALS
95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS
92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS
Fossil Wade = Peak Pippen:
Playoffs
16' WADE........ 22.3 PER.. 4.9 bpm.. 0.148 ws/48.. 0.8 vorp.. 22/6/4 on 47%... in 4th*
94' PIPPEN'..,.. 22.8 PER.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.149 ws/48.. 0.7 vorp.. 23/8/6 on 43%... 3.0 on 20% in 4th
* for clutch-points lead in 2016 2nd Round
The difference is that Wade was building the Heat like a real franchise player does, while Pippen cratered the Bulls to barely .500 before MJ restored 3-peat caliber.
CONCLUSION: Pippen was a secondary producer that many guys in the league could match or exceed.... X-Man, Schrempf, and Larry Johnson destroyed him, while Schrempf was actually a 6'10" version of Pippen but with elite modern shooting ability, plus he was "bigger/stronger/faster" - think Paolo Banchero, except they didn't use big guys like that back then, so Schrempf was restricted despite having it all talent-wise.... Otoh, Pippen was just a dunker that landed alongside the goat to carry him and coddle him until he learned a system that was designed to get bums like him open shots.
Are you capable of not lying?Pippen could've been an equal or leading scorer for any playoff run alongside Jordan just like every other sidekick in history has done alongside the 1st option. Wade led Lebron in scoring for the 11' Playoffs, or AD led for the 20' Playoffs, or Kyrie was an equal-scoring partner and closer in 16'... Worthy led the Lakers for the 87-91' Playoffs...
Yeah, so I don't think Pippen is as good as Jordan as a scorer. So, yes Pippen had one chance to be the first option.
Pippen wasn't a 1st option and the only reason he got to be 1st option was MJ's sudden retirement that handed the goat dynasty to Pippen.. He proceeded to embarrass himself as the lead guy in the playoffs and was barely .500 the next season.In contrast to Pippen cratering the goat dynasty to barely .500, Jimmy Butler built the 39-win Heat to a 2-time Finals team as a franchise
I’m sorry but did mj had a great team or they all sucked ?
You can’t have it both ways even tho it’s that you always try to do….
Or pippen did great with a shitty team or mj did great with a great team (and pippen didn’t had much to do with it).
55 win isn’t a bad team and pippen lead that team and achieve a scoring and defence performance many of your “franchise player” wouldn’t achieve .
If losing in seven sucks well wtf does it mean when Shaq got swept like 5 times with good teams and still in your top 10….
Ps: even tho sometimes pippen failed in the playoffs ) like pretty much everyone except mj) , at least pippen did far more better then many of your franchise players in the playoffs like bosh and love …..
why is fitting into a system and being a great fit for it both such a great and horrible thing depending on the player you want to demean?
nvm, asked and answered
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Pretty much summarized the entire FG criteria’s ….
