GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Here's Gary Payton saying that John Stockton was harder to guard than MJ.
I know Gary Payton and Karl Malone are no George Lynch but they have their opinions.
Reading between the lines, again it's bc he shares the ball and makes teammates better.
You say Jordan wasn't a ball dominator but even you can't argue he wasn't a shots dominator (aka ball hog). No doubt a tough guy to play with (you have to sacrifice so he gets all the glory).
It's so funny you list all these other players and their ppg next to LeBron without realizing that they'd get about half the number of shots next to MJ.
Of course he would be unbeatable if he had 3 guys next to him averaging ~17 (when he's averaging 30+) but that was basically mathematically impossible with his shot dominance. They'd have to shoot ungodly, magical percentages.
Extrapolating what Karl had to say, you look like a fool saying Scottie wasn't the perfect Robin next to MJ.
omg look at poor Ron Harper!
His ppg for eight seasons before joining MJ and the Bulls was:
22.9(2nd in ROY)/15.4/18.6/22.8/19.6/18.2/18.0/20.1
an average of 19.3 PPG
And with the Bulls?
6.9/7.4/6.3/9.3/11.2
an average of 7.9 PPG
The per 36 isn't much better. He averaged a little over half in Chicago what he did prior.
omg look at poor Ron Harper!
His ppg for eight seasons before joining MJ and the Bulls was:
22.9(2nd in ROY)/15.4/18.6/22.8/19.6/18.2/18.0/20.1
an average of 19.3 PPG
And with the Bulls?
6.9/7.4/6.3/9.3/11.2
an average of 7.9 PPG
The per 36 isn't much better. He averaged a little over half in Chicago what he did prior.
Stern rigging the league for the Bulls by allowing this to happen. Also took away a guy who would be defending MJ on another team.
You were an MJ fan and now that I prove Lebron sucks, you're a Lebron fan.So you have no integrity, whereas I have never shifted my position for over 1000 pages.You're a leaf in the wind.And all 6 of MJ's titles required 31 to 35 ppg in the playoffs and 10-30 more than all teammates (max defensive attention), otherwise he was scoring champ im the regular season.. And I don't wa
Not only you can’t read , can’t deduct what people are saying , can’t uses stats and can’t have a consistent line of thought, u saying I’m a lebron fan ?
Thx for proving my point your delusional lol
I mean you are invited to quote what made u hallucinating that ….😀
I’ll wage you with 10-1 odds if u can find another poster here who believes I’m a lebron fan lol…
FWIW the link putting outside LeBron top 10 is way closer to be a pure hater then someone saying LeBron top 10 = being a fan !
As soon as Jordan made his 2nd of 3 retirements, Toni Kukoc blossomed into a 19/7/5 guy.
League was rigged as hell for Jordan. They even gave Magic HIV and Bird a bad back to set it all up for him. And Len Bias and Ralph Sampson. Everything lined up perfectly.
They even moved the 3 point line in lol. Beginner format all around.
Even in that beginner format teams were too stupid to take 3s.
Since you love quotes from greats of the era...Guess who Karl Malone would start a team with from the Dream Team as a teammate? (Taking Stockton out as an option.)(2:11)
Spoiler
Clutch-time stats PER GAME for 1997 Playoffs:
Malone is 2nd option to no one - this is the only reason he chooses someone like Pippen instead of other Dream-Teamers that would be ahead of him, like MJ or Robinson.. But Malone is wrong because he needs a rich man's Michael Jordan in clutch-time, as the highlighted blue stats for Stockton show in the 2nd table above... The 1st table shows the massive gap between Stockton and Pippen.... Prime Hornacek was easily a better scorer and playmaker than Pippen, while Stockton had superior handle and scoring ability, which showed with his MJ-level clutch-time and 4th quarter stats.
Here's Gary Payton saying that John Stockton was harder to guard than MJ.I know Gary Payton and Karl Malone are no George Lynch but they have their opinions.Reading between the lines, again it's bc he shares the ball and makes teammates better.
Jordan's goat scoring ability makes it easy for everyone to lie about his career, but Jordan made teammates better more than anyone ever has - no one in history had to build single-digit rookies into meaningful producers to win - only Jordan.. Jordan is literally the greatest teammate elevator ever and it's not even close... No one in history has a track record of teammates improving on their watch like Jordan.. Jordan built a scrawny rookie like Pippen into a Larry Nance or Iguodala-caliber - show me someone else that did that to win, and also show me someone else that could win a multiple rings with a secondary producer like Nance/Pippen/Iggy, etc.
You say Jordan wasn't a ball dominator but even you can't argue he wasn't a shots dominator (aka ball hog). No doubt a tough guy to play with (you have to sacrifice so he gets all the glory).
Pippen was a transition and system player that otherwise couldn't score, so Jordan was required to carry the goat scoring load.. All of this is the historical record.
Phil thought the triangle would spread the load around and reduce Jordan's burden, but Jordan's shot attempts/usage and scoring rate increased in the triangle.. So he simply had no scoring help... Imagine winning titles with a 14 ppg player (outside the system) like Pippen.
The ability to carry the "star" category of scoring allows winning with less star help, which allows GM's to find better role players and defensive help... So carrying the scoring load against top teams and in the Finals is critical criteria for any top 10 candidate that played in the 3-pointer era.. Without it, a player from the 3-point era cannot be in the top 10... Accordingly, since ball-dominators are too ball-dominant at high scoring levelsthey can't carry the scoring load vs top teams and need all-time scoring help... Otoh, all the guys that carried the scoring load for the playoffs and Finals of a title run were highly-assisted skillsets (bigs or jumpshooters).
Facts
Pippen is a crunch time stud.
In 1997 Scottie was the 3rd highest points per clutch game in the league (filtered for players with more than 10 games - 11 players). He did this despite having a ball hog of a teammate.
He was also 2nd in +/- (out of 11). Above MJ.
Clutch.
As soon as Jordan made his 2nd of 3 retirements, Toni Kukoc blossomed into a 19/7/5 guy.
League was rigged as hell for Jordan. They even gave Magic HIV and Bird a bad back to set it all up for him. And Len Bias and Ralph Sampson. Everything lined up perfectly.
Pippen held Kukoc down in 1994 and 1995, not Jordan - Pippen put Kukoc in that role and Jordan maintained it when he returned - he never reduced Kukoc.
Regarding Ron Harper - this has been said 1000 times - he was already a 7 ppg player alongside Pippen in 1995 before MJ returned... No one blamed Pippen because everyone knew that Harper was completely shot at that point.. It's a tribute to Harper that even a shot Harper could still be a decent role player.
Facts
Pippen is a crunch time stud.
In 1997 Scottie was the 3rd highest points per clutch game in the league (filtered for players with more than 10 games - 11 players). He did this despite having a ball hog of a teammate.
He was also 2nd in +/- (out of 11). Above MJ.
Clutch.
Pippen's 1997 clutch is literally the worst-ever so you're just lying about the numbers
fg,
You forgot to bag on Ron Harper and explain how he sucks and it wasn't Jordan's fault that he went from a 20ppg player to 6.9ppg. Not sure anyone else in history could do that to a guy, either.
Want to do that now?
Pippen held Kukoc down in 1994 and 1995, not Jordan - Pippen put Kukoc in that role and Jordan maintained it when he returned - he never reduced Kukoc.Regarding Ron Harper - this has been said 1000 times - he was already a 7 ppg player alongside Pippen in 1995 before MJ returned... No one blamed Pippen because everyone knew that Harper was completely shot at that point.. It's a
oh, there it is.
It was Pippen's fault. Of course.
How was it the GOAT dynasty when it seems like it was Jordan and a bunch of bums?
Why would you blame Pippen for cratering the GOAT dynasty when really it was all a house of cards without Jordan? Coach sucked, not one teammate was very good, etc.
Seems incongruent and like you really, really get off on belittling Pippen instead of being objective and consistent in your logic.
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1997 Finals Clutch-time stats PER GAME:
^^^ Pippen is worst-ever for a star player (1.0 on 12.5%)
How was it the GOAT dynasty when it seems like it was Jordan and a bunch of bums?
Why would you blame Pippen for cratering the GOAT dynasty when really it was all a house of cards without Jordan? Coach sucked, not one teammate was very good, etc.
Seems incongruent and like you really, really get off on belittling Pippen instead of being objective and consistent in your logic.
The reason that the Bulls are the goat dynasty and won all those chips is because their improvement was all basketball-related - there were no additions of talent to the 88' lottery cast... The methodology was simply "lose, try again... lose, try again.... lose, try again... never again".... This approach of getting better at actual basketball produced the greatest tam ever, led by the GOAT.
Fact
Pippen gets blamed for having poor clutch time stats when MJ averages a shot per minute in clutch time. How is anyone meant to score when there's a ballhog on the court?
Also taking stats from a 19 minute samples is not very smart.
Also FG can't interpret stats he posted and calls people liars.
Facts
The reason the Bulls were a dynasty and won 6 chips is that they had a really good loaded basketball team outside MJ and an all time coach. Then having MJ put them over the top and unbeatable*
* I say unbeatable for that era of Stern manipulation, expansion and few international players.
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1994 2nd Round
This represents the lowest combination of advanced boxscore stats ever for a winning sidekick: Pippen gets blamed for having poor clutch time stats when MJ averages a shot per minute 1993 Pippen....... 16.9 PER..... 0.083 WS/48... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 50.4 TS[/B]
Pippen averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter of the 1994 2nd Round without MJ, so he simply couldn't score (system player).
His worst-ever efficiency in the 93' and 96-98' Playoffs (shown above) further confirms that he was the biggest bricklayer/lane-clogger of all-time, i.e. a dunker forced into a 2nd option role that his low efficiency betrayed he couldn't handle, but this bricklaying/lane-clogging still won because it was alongside the GOAT scoring burden-carrier (GOAT).
Pippen was easily the worst of anyone with around 20 minutes of clutch-time, and those are the most important 20 minutes of the Finals (nearly 2 quarters of clutch-time):1997 Finals Clutch-Time (sorted by total minutes)
In the 1998 2nd Round, Pippen had zero points in clutch-time (shown below)... lol.... and of course 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter of 94' 2nd Round (shown above).
This type of worst-ever efficiency and clutch ability is what happens when you force a dunker into a 2nd option role
