GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

Similar to Lebron in 2003, AD was a #1 pick and tasked with building the worst team in the league through all the developmental stages of a franchise, while Pippen was handed a fully-developed franchise, dynasty culture, and 3-peat system.

You don't see the difference?.. Pippen was never considered a franchise player that gets built around... MJ's sudden retirement allowed Pippen to luck into a fully-developed franchise, dynasty culture, 3-peat system and also sleeping opponents (since the Bulls were the letdown game on everyone's schedule).

And Pippen lacked the dominant stats that allow a team to put good scorers beneath him (without supplanting him), so any Pippen-led team lacks the capacity to add talent and build, which is why he was never a franchise player and cratered the goat dynasty to barely .500 in less than 18 months.. Then he begged MJ to return after embarrassing himself to epic levels in the playoffs.

There is an overwhelming amount of data at this point that playing with LeBron James improves teammates and, without the triangle offense, playing alongside Michael Jordan craters teammates' potential.

I looked into how LeBron James impacts teammates' assists, and the results were interesting:

When LeBron James joined the Cavaliers in 2003-04, their total team assists went from 1712 to 1808 for the season. An improvement of 96 assists. LeBron James had 465 of those. If you subtract out his assists from the team total, this is, by definition, the assists produced by all non-LeBron teammates without cherry-picking any players. This leaves 1343 assists for the rest of the team. So, adding LeBron James to the team "reduced teammate assists" by (1343-1712)/82 = -4.5 assists per game.

Now, you may point out that this is an incomprehensibly stupid way to analyze teammate assist data, and you would be right to do so. Because if an excellent playmaker that creates a lot of assists joins a team, then the rest of the team's assists will then have to decrease based on the laws of mathematics. There are a finite number of possessions, and the high assist player is consuming some number of those assist opportunities. Put another way, a play that ends in a field goal can only have one assist, and if LeBron James creates that assist then another player on the floor cannot have an assist for that possession. If we assume similar pace and number of possessions per game, that means the best playmakers with the highest assist totals will cause the other 4 players on the court's average assist numbers to go down. Any increase beyond this must then, logically, be due to other factors like scheme and differences in a player's role.

Note that this does not just apply to LeBron James, but all basketball players, based on the laws of logic. Continuing:

When LeBron James joined Miami in 2010-11, their total team assists went from 1548 to 1639. 554 of those 1639 assists were LeBron James assists, leaving 1085 for the players not named LeBron James. This reduced their per game assist numbers by (1085-1548)/82 = -5.646 (non-LeBron) assists per game.

For the 2014-15 Cavs:
1738 total team assists in the season before LeBron joined
1814 with LeBron
511 of those were LeBron assists
Reduced total (non-LeBron) teammate assists by (1303-1738)/82 = -5.305 assists per game

For the 2018-19 Lakers:
1949 total team assists in the season before LeBron joined
2096 with LeBron
454 of those were LeBron assists
Reduced total teammate assists by (1642-1949)/82 = -3.7439 assists per game

This is all incredibly rudimentary mathematics. All it takes is a knowledge of subtraction, division, and how to take an average. Now here is where it gets interesting:

When Michael Jordan joined the Bulls in 1984-85, the assists went from 2095 the season prior, to 1992 assists in the season Jordan joined. A decrease in 103 total team assists. Note that LeBron James has never, in his entire career, caused a decrease in total team assists when he has joined a new team. 481 of those assists were Michael Jordan's assists. Thus, using the same simple mathematics as above:

1992-481 = 1511 total team assists by players not named Michael Jordan. Which means having Michael Jordan on the roster caused a decrease of
(1511-2095)/82 = -7.12195 (!!!) teammate assists per game.

When Michael Jordan rejoined the Chicago Bulls in 1995-96 after his first retirement:
2033 total team assists with Michael Jordan back
2102 total team assists in the full season without Michael Jordan.
Yes the Bulls, again had more total team assists without Michael Jordan on the roster.
Jordan contributed 352 assists to the 2033 total, leaving 2033-352 = 1681 assists for the rest of the team.
This means having Jordan on the roster reduced average teammate assists by (1681-2102)/82 = -5.13415

This means that, across relevant seasons during each player's prime, LeBron James may have "reduced teammates' assists" by -4.799 assists per game (and, as proven above, this is simply due to the fact that there are a finite number of possessions, and high-assist players will consume more possessions, on average, with their own assists).... But Michael Jordan, on average, reduced teammate assists even more, at a staggering rate of -6.1281 assists per game.

Again, this all follows from simple mathematics: subtracting out the player in question's assists from the rest of the team. This is, by definition, the total team assists that are not attributed to that specific player. Above, we have proven that LeBron James actually reduces teammate assist totals far less than Michael Jordan. Any conflicting data and conclusions to the above would therefore be due to lies and cherry-picking of specific player data to push a narrative that is fully based on disinformation.

Thank you fidstar. I appreciate that. Yes, I admit that I was definitely wrong before when I had ranked Michael Jordan as the GOAT. A closer inspection of the facts and data (and the admitted premise that team and teammate assists are critical to overall team success) proved that LeBron James is the superior player. I agree that it takes a man to admit when he is wrong. Those that cannot admit they are wrong are less so.

Sorry I haven’t posted as much recently, but it seems that you, Montreal, McLovin, DodgerIrish, Carnivore, and LuckyLloyd have been holding down the fort and making some excellent points, as usual. Since there haven’t been any new or interesting posts from the other side of the debate, it didn’t seem necessary to continue. Hopefully the above post proving that Michael Jordan reduced teammate assists more than LeBron James can spur some interesting, honest discussion, since this would be the final nail in the coffin, as it were, to whatever remained of any opposing argument.

Lebron james played 69 games this year
Reaves 72 games .
Yup that 3 games means everything to be allnba and the 69 games reaves played otherwise means nothing lol….

Reeves years ago should of been an AS with 13 and 15 ppg !
Makes a lot of sense lol.

Keep the good work fall guy .

Yes so what ?
That don’t respond to anything I was responding too lol.
Nice strawman again

This is one of the dumbest ways imaginable to analyze basketball but hats off to Matt R. for going down the fallguy rabbit hole of stupidity, dissecting fallguy's arguments and using his logic against himself to absolutely crush and destroy fallguy's own arguments.

Wrong again.

Luka Doncic averaging his career averages in points / assists / rebounds on the Lakers.

Anthony Davis won a championship averaging 26ppg, higher than his career ppg and his apg went up.

Kyrie Irving averaged 20ppg before LeBron came to Cleveland and averaged 22, 20, and 25 ppg with LeBron.

Tien,
Yes exactly. Fallguy has created this elaborate framework specifically designed to discredit LeBron such that he can shift him outside the top 10 of all time. The thing is, even when he custom designed this hodge-podge of stupid to make LeBron look bad, he still can’t even do it correctly. He still has to, even then, lie and cherry pick specific players and data to make LeBron look worse than MJ. When you use his specific bullshit framework, but actually do it in a statistically correct and valid way, Jordan still comes out on the bottom.

Fallguy legitimately might be the most useless, incompetent, and irrelevant thing that I’ve ever come across, and I’m not exaggerating at all when I say that.

Why u do ?
For Luka or to knocking down fallguy 😀

FG wins no matter what.

Lakers win led by Luka. LeBron terrible
Lakers win when both Luka and LeBron play well. Luka carries him
Lakers win when LeBron leads them. Luka/Reeves take all the attention. LeBron terrible.
Lakers lose when LeBron plays well. LeBron terrible. Players can't play well around him
Lakers lose when LeBron doesn't play well. LeBron terrible

It's a pretty easy game. No accounting for LeBron being old will be taken into account.

To cement the trade as the 2nd dumbest thing in sports history after the Watson trade/contract.

You studied fallguy too well !
You became an expert on his strategy 😃

I don’t follow the nfl but was informative and lol on Cleveland .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deshaun_Watson_trade

en

Deshaun Watson trade - Wikipedia

He's also predicted they will both win and lose, so he will just quote whichever prediction is correct.

Congrats LeBron for...

Doing that at age 40 is insane.

It's arguable that he's still in his Prime.

Maybe not in his prime, but the equivalent of MJ's prime.

LeBron's 20 consecutive years of averaging 25ppg will likely never be broken. He missed out this year because he "only" averaged 24.4.

MJ maxed out at 11 consecutive seasons of 25+.

LeBron averaged 24.4 this season with an eFG% of 57.4% as a 40 year old. MJ achieved 57.4% or more zero times in his career. He maxed out at 55%. LeBron has been less than MJ's career high only once in the last 16 seasons.

It would be wonderful if we could compare old playoff MJ to old playoff LeBron, but unfortunately MJ wasn't good enough to get to the post season. He missed it by 5 games.

This is a good point. The efficiency at which one scores (eFG%) is as important as the volume at which one scores (points — of which LeBron has the most in the history of basketball). And since efficiency is correlated to winning basketball, we can conclude that it is a good thing, even if LeBron James happens to be better than Jordan at it.

Counterpoint though: if one were to be incredibly mentally ill and/or not have the cognitive capabilities to understand statistically valid arguments, we could choose a statistic that is negatively correlated with wins (assisted fg%) and reason backwards that this is actually a good thing because LeBron James happens to have a career average that is 1-2% below some arbitrary threshold. Since this argument happens to be correlated with mental illness and poor cognitive capabilities though, I would advise most people who know anything about basketball to avoid it.

Or we could argue that chucking up shots is good because it allows for offensive rebounding! One of the many “arguments” made in this thread.

Also 22 seasons of 20+ it's so absurd, especially since he also has 287 and counting playoff games

The only player with more games played had 190 games of <5ppg 16mpg at then end, Lebron is still around 10th best in the league.

Just imagine the walls of text coming.

😃

Was thinking already this yesterday !
Imagine after today …