Ukraine-Russia War Take 2
Here is what the preliminary take on the Ukraine thread disappearing is:
The site was hit with a massive spam attack wher
What you asking is if Putin consider Ukraine pure Russian and “Ukrainian people” are just a myth ?
Yes he actually wrote about it .
For Putin , Ukraine always been more of a province of Russia then a country by itself
I asked specifically about elimination and you know that. Nations of millions of Bashkirs, Tatars, Chechens, Udmurts don't exist? There are 21 republics (nation states) within Russia, are their nations eliminated?
Not such an important figure as Russian propaganda makes him out to be, and certainly a divisive rather than a unifying one.
He's an extremely important figure as he is very popular among the extreme right in Ukraine and he ties the extreme right movements, who worship his legacy, to Nazism. Embracing him, as many in Ukraine do, escalates the hatred from just ambient and day-to-day to doctrinal. That's a very important distinction because it portends the kind of changes that will take place in different possible Ukraines to come as the ideology will not dissipate. It's going to be there as long as the leadership is there.
So, when there is some kind of peace negotiated, we will know something about the aims and the beliefs of the neo naazi militias which have been on the vanguard of the fighting. They will have gone from Proud Boys style jackoffs to hardened soldiers with battle experience with high tech weapons. Pretending that they aren't neo Nazis would hinder the strategies to counter them going forward. Who knows what kind of weapons they will have and what kind of terrorism they will effect? The accounting for the weapons is obviously a joke. Highly lethal weapons sent to Ukraine are showing up in all kinds of black markets.
Have we created a monster? The military industrial complex loves monsters because monsters give them a purpose and create sprawling enclaves of mini mansions all over the D.C. suburbs. Are you one of these people? if not I can't fathom why you defend them and give them your votes. Honestly I hope, for your sake, that you materially benefit from the proxy war and secretly know everything you are saying here is absolute nonsense.
I asked specifically about elimination and you know that. Nations of millions of Bashkirs, Tatars, Chechens, Udmurts don't exist? There are 21 republics (nation states) within Russia, are their nations eliminated?
The Russian regime pursues a policy of Russification, which aims to suppress non-Russian culture, identity and statehood within the federation and in many neighboring regions / countries.
This policy is most actively pursued in Ukraine, where the pretext of occupation allows the regime to do it at gunpoint and use measures such as kidnapping, displacement, land redistribution, torture, murder, concentration camps and threats of violence to achieve this goal.
Russian-occupied territories in Ukraine therefore stands as the clearest recent example of how far the regime is willing to go to pursue these goals. However, we saw very similar policies of ethnic cleansing enacted in both Chechnya and Georgia.
In Russia itself, Russification was established judicially under amendments to the constitution in 2020. Amendments which removed term limits for Putin, and also establish Russian as both language and the state-forming nationality of the Russian federation. This was later coupled with laws that overrode local governments curriculum in teaching local language, and brutal crackdowns on free speech and assembly that ran counter to the regime or was critical of its policies.
In essence, it was the final shift for the regime. From a corrupt and deeply flawed democracy in 2000, through a corrupt and authoritarian state in the 2010s, to a corrupt and totalitarian autocracy in the 2020s.
About the only thing you can debate on the issue is whether Russia's actions are those of a far-right autocracy or a neo-imperialist autocracy. Meaning that the only thing left to debate is whether the goal is eradication or subjugation of non-desirable ethnicities. The answer to that question isn't straightforward, but it is also mostly an academic discussion; it doesn't really matter to the victims.
The Russian regime pursues a policy of Russification, which aims to suppress non-Russian culture, identity and statehood within the federation and in many neighboring regions / countries.This policy is most actively pursued in Ukraine, where the pretext of occupation allows the regime to do it at gunpoint and use measures such as kidnapping, displacement, land redistribution, t
Thanks for your ChatGPT input, but it didn't answer my simple yes or no question. Are nations like Bashkirs, Tatars, Chechens, Udmurts eliminated within Russia?
Also, I will remind the original post I am trying to dispute:
Putin has always said that the goal is to eliminate Ukraine as a nation, because it shouldn't exist
My point is that Putin never implied eliminating Ukraine as a nation. He only talks about elimination of Ukraine's government (that got into power since 2014 coup). According to official 2001 census
17.3% of Ukraine's population consisted of Russians. Very logical that Russia was not happy with the new anti-Russia pro-NATO government that got the power through a coup in a country with like 8 millions of Russians there
This was later coupled with laws that overrode local governments curriculum in teaching local language,
I cant imagine a Ukraine fan actually saying this with a straight face.
Thanks for your ChatGPT input, but it didn't answer my simple yes or no question. Are nations like Bashkirs, Tatars, Chechens, Udmurts eliminated within Russia?
You seem to misread me, I have little interest in your question. It was and still is merely a purposefully goal-shifting question meant to deflect from Russia's abhorrent crimes in Ukraine, its similar crimes in other occupied countries / regions, its brutal and oppressive subjugation of independence movements and ethnicities within its own borders and the atrocious ideology of Russia's regime.
The reason I don't have a particular interest in the rules of your debate, is that I know there is likely very few actions the Russian regime could undertake to lose your endorsement. The regime's repeated use of ethnic cleansing is likely something you wholeheartedly support.
Though of course, in this thread you are "just asking questions".
My point is that Putin never implied eliminating Ukraine as a nation. He only talks about elimination of Ukraine's government (that got into power since 2014 coup). According to official 2001 census
17.3% of Ukraine's population consisted of Russians. Very logical that Russia was not happy with the new anti-Russia pro-NATO goProbably higher now, given the aggressive ethnic cleansing of Ukrainian speakers in the territories Russia has seized. I should be noted for any future peace Putin is demanding a lot of land that Russia does not control, and is majority Ukrainian speaking.
Vic still obsessed with Azov, while not being the slightest bit interested in Russian neo Nazi battalions who were active in the 2014 incursion into Ukraine.
Let me know when the neo Nazis in Russia overthrow the Russian government, control the military, and threaten and cajole politicians openly like what happened and is happening in Ukraine.
Vic still obsessed with Azov, while not being the slightest bit interested in Russian neo Nazi battalions who were active in the 2014 incursion into Ukraine.
what battalions are you talking about? can you provide a link like I always do?
fwiw, Corps are much bigger than battalions fyi.
Let me know when the neo Nazis in Russia overthrow the Russian government, control the military, and threaten and cajole politicians openly like what happened and is happening in Ukraine.
Neo Nazis haven't overthrown the Zelensky government and don't control the military, comrade.
I did before but here y'go. I await your subsequent excuses/denials that will surely follow.
The Sabotage Assault Reconnaissance Group (DShRG) "Rusich" (Russian: Диверсионно-штурмовая разведывательная группа «Русич», romanized: Diversionno-shturmovaya razvedyvatel'naya gruppa «Rusich») is a Russian far-right[2][3] and neo-Nazi paramilitary unit[4][5] that has been fighting against Ukrainian forces in the Russo-Ukrainian War. Its co-founder and leader is Alexey Milchakov and operates within the Wagner Group.[2][6] "Rusich" fought on the side of pro-Russian military in the Donbas war from June 2014 to July 2015, and in the Russian invasion of Ukraine alongside Russian troops.[7]
Speaking of providing links you never got back to me with that list of people that Zelensky has had tortured and killed, like you claimed earlier itt.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
fwiw, Corps are much bigger than battalions fyi.
And?
So it's okay to have a neo nazi battalion, long as it's just several hundred people. I totally didn't expect a piss poor excuse from you, no siree etc.
Any sign of that list yet, victor victorovich?
who said it was OK? the point is that its not nearly to a comparable extent of an entire Corps. furthermore, it wasnt even part of the Russian Army according to wiki as that puts as part of Wagner or the Donbas Separatists.
Band together behind? Yeah when they're not goosestepping under pictures of Stepan Bandera they, in spite of their Nazi rhetoric and tattoos and all encompassing ideology, just love Zelensky. They love Zelensky because he is in no way a figurehead. He puts on his military-by-JCPenney shirts and commands respect from Jew haters everywhere because he's just that transcendent. Sure you're right.
Neo Nazis haven't overthrown the Zelensky government and don't control the military, comrade.
I didn't say they overthrew the Zelensky government. They overthrew the democratically elected government of Ukraine in 2014.
Do they control the military? Well the NYT just came out with a piece disclosing how the U.S. actually controls the Ukrainian army, at least on the strategy. This was divulged, obviously, to try to drive a wedge between the Trump administration and Russia and derail peace negotiations. So who controls the Ukrainian military is a complicated question, but the extremist militias which include the neo Nazis are getting all the best weapons and are constitute the officer ranks. Between the generals, Zelensky, and the U.S. who knows what the effective balance of power is. But in a scenario where things breakdown it seems pretty obvious that the military could break down the barrier between it and civil society very easily and at the direction of the extremist neo Nazis.
seems the Brits have a lot of control of the Ukrainian Army as well. or maybe the Americans are just trying to offload the responsibility for the disasters in Krynki and Kursk.
I didn't say they overthrew the Zelensky government. They overthrew the democratically elected government of Ukraine in 2014.
No they didn't.
Do they control the military? Well the NYT just came out with a piece disclosing how the U.S. actually controls the Ukrainian army, at least on the strategy. This was divulged, obviously, to try to drive a wedge between the Trump administration and Russia and derail peace negotiations. So who controls the Ukrainian military is a complicated question, but the extremist militias which include the neo Nazis are getting all the best weapons and are constitute the officer ranks. Between the generals, Zelensky, and the U.S. who knows what the effective balance of power is. But in a scenario where things breakdown it seems pretty obvious that the military could break down the barrier between it and civil society very easily and at the direction of the extremist neo Nazis.
Neo Nazis don't control the Ukrainian military.
who said it was OK? the point is that its not nearly to a comparable extent of an entire Corps. furthermore, it wasnt even part of the Russian Army according to wiki as that puts as part of Wagner or the Donbas Separatists.
Yet again:
Rusich" fought on the side of pro-Russian military in the Donbas war from June 2014 to July 2015, and in the Russian invasion of Ukraine alongside Russian troops.[7]
I'm not interested in your usual garbled nonsense. You seem to think it's okay, hence your pointing it out and your disinterest in this, due to them being Russian is duly noted, as is your inability to provide a list of all these people you claim Zelensky has had tortured and killed.
your own quote confirms what I just said. they were not part of the Russian Army. Azov is an integral part of the Ukrainian Army and is now a Corps. thats a big difference than a few 100 mercenary clowns.
and man, if a few hundred far right fascist types is concerning to you, well I got some bad news to tell you about the US Army, Eastern Euro Armies and yes of course, the Israeli ethnosupremacist genocidal Army.
your own quote confirms what I just said. they were not part of the Russian Army. Azov is an integral part of the Ukrainian Army and is now a Corps. thats a big difference than a few 100 mercenary clowns. and man, if a few hundred far right fascist types is concerning to you, well I got some bad news to tell you about the US Army, Eastern Euro Armies and yes of course, the
Lol.
