Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
Nonsense. It withdrew to the periphery and maintained Gaza as a huge prison. Gazans weren't allowed an airport or to fish more than three miles out. They weren't allowed free commerce with the world. They were highly constrained. Peaceful protest was met with bullets. Of course they erupted.
Neither. They are playing a long game where they feel if they keep up the pressure on Israel long enough (be it 5, 50, 100 years) Israel will eventually fold under the pressure. They sincerely feel God has given them a covenant to work towards this end, and he will reward them in the after life for their decisions in this one. On top of eventually leading them to victory.
The Palestinians aren't playing the long game. They were born and raised in war and poverty and propaganda. I don't cast the same degree of blame on Hamas and I wouldn't expect anyone who is born under those conditions to be able to rationally access wtf is going on.
They are the tool, Iran's hammer for their own self interest. And just as the same, I wouldn't blame Iranians but the Iranian regime and their revoultionary corps.
They are the **** stain of the ME and fueling Hamas, even when it was obvious that it would end in Gaza and the Palestinians getting rekt, still benefits the 25 people in charge of Iran. This classic type of asymmetric warfare isn't new.
Israel committing genocide in Gaza, says EU’s former top diplomat
Josep Borrell also criticises EU response to what he calls largest ethnic cleansing operation since second world war
The former EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell has launched a blistering attack on Israel, accusing its government of committing genocide in Gaza and “carrying out the largest ethnic-cleansing operation since the end of the second world war in order to create a splendid holiday destination”.
Borrell, a former Spanish foreign minister who served as the EU’s top diplomat from 2019 to 2024, and president of the European parliament from 2004 to 2007, also criticised the bloc’s failure to use all the means at its disposal to influence Israel, saying expressions of regret were simply not enough.
As he collected the Charles V European award in front of dignitaries including King Felipe in south-west Spain on Friday, Borrell said the horrors Israel had suffered in the Hamas attacks on 7 October 2023 could not justify the horrors it had subsequently inflicted on Gaza.
“We’re facing the largest ethnic cleansing operation since the end of the second world war in order to create a splendid holiday destination once all the millions of tonnes of rubble have been cleared from Gaza and the Palestinians have died or gone away,” he said in a characteristically direct speech.
The former diplomat accused Israel of violating all the rules of conflict and of using the starvation of Gaza’s civilian population as a “weapon of war”.
The fact that he said it’s the largest ethnic cleansing operation since WW2 immediately disqualifies his opinion from being taken seriously.
Israel is an important strategic ally, and also they didn’t start the war. Israel withdrew from Gaza and what did Gaza do? Vote in a genocidal terrorist organization that promptly ended democracy in their country.
I feel bad for kids living there but forgetting all historical context is wild.
The fact that he said it’s the largest ethnic cleansing operation since WW2 immediately disqualifies his opinion from being taken seriously.
Notice how whenever anything of substance is talked about the only one who even makes an attempt to engage is victor, and the people that get hard from dead palestinian babies because they can attack liberals just shrink away from it and pivot to conspiracies and insults.
So you think there is a literal genocide going on but will let genocide apologia go unchallenged because you are too lazy? How dare you. You’re practically complicit in a genocide.
If you support Yemen’s blockade of Israel’s ports, and BDS then surely you should have no problem with this? Economic warfare to change the hearts of the population is common in warfare.Unfortunately the way the right in Israel sees it they would rather take over all of Gaza and give aid themselves than to lift the blockade because the international community has demonstrated a
This guy with his incorrectly spelled name has zero to offer but pointless little one-liners at which people shake their head and move on, but DONT YOU DARE post an article with JUST THE HEADLINE (even though that by itself is 10x more content than this clown has offered in all his moronic drive-by quips combined), or you're gonna get one of these pointless but snarky one-liners directed at YOU.
How is this guy still crashing out over being asked to cite sources when bringing up crazy alternative history and conspiracy theories? News flash: we haven’t all spent countless hours online indoctrinating ourselves.
Anyways, it seems like the UN is fighting tooth and nail to keep their hand in the Palestinian aid cookie jar. The aid will flow into Gaza once the UN officials are guaranteed their cut.
I pretty much ignore what Karl posts because it’s mostly extremely racist ramblings mixed with a lot of insults so sorry if I missed exactly what is bothering him. I just noticed him going crazy over the last few pages.
This guy with his incorrectly spelled name has zero to offer but pointless little one-liners at which people shake their head and move on, but DONT YOU DARE post an article with JUST THE HEADLINE (even though that by itself is 10x more content than this clown has offered in all his moronic drive-by quips combined), or you're gonna get one of these pointless but snarky one-liner
Do you think that someone who says that this is the largest ethnic cleansing since WW2 should be taken seriously? That person is clearly trying to point score.
Besides, lefties only speak in quippy rhetoric so I’m just matching their energy. Victor comes on day after day pointing fingers about genocide. Anything that undermines that is implicitly better for people that want to keep Israel as a strategic partner, which they are and will be.
I always regarded deliberate systematic forced displacement as a form of ethnic cleansing.
Well ok I think I know what you mean and I would generally agree. You left out the part about it being on based on the ethnicity or race or other immutable or practically immutable and distinguishing traits of the targets. People might be forcibly moved from an area where a volcano is about to erupt and it has nothing to do with their ethnicity but I get what you mean.
Well then I guess you don't always so regard the actions you cited above as ethnic cleansing. It's ethnic cleansing in the modern era, within the post WWII liberal context. It's being done with a ton of PR and conniving to gloss over the actual process in order to not, ironically, go against the international laws and norms that were put in place in response to the Holocaust. I think you might not be familiar with the history, with so many statements of so many key architects of the Israeli state who have acknowledged the ethnic cleansing aims of the state of Israel. You might also not be familiar with the statements made by various high level officials of the state of Israel regarding their current actions. There is a database of such statements. It was presented by South Africa to the ICJ to substantiate the intent portion of their charge of genocide against Israel. If you have the statements of intent and you have the actions to match I don't know what else you would be looking for to see that Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing.
If they do attempt to forcibly displace the Gazan populace I'll change my opinion and condemn them for it.
You can't have missed, among thousands of other statements saying they want to cleanse the Gazans, that Israel was actively negotiating for another country to accept the Palestinians they intended to displace. There is literally nothing Israel hasn't done to signal their intention in word or deed which doesn't mean they are actively engaged in the process of ethnic cleansing. There is also the time series population maps showing the shrinking territory of Palestinians over time. This is beyond "if it looks like a duck...". We've got duck DNA all over the place.
And I find it bemusing that far leftists froth at the mouth at anti migrancy into Europe and America, indeed referring to the illegal ones as "undocumented", so as not to offend the illegal's sensibilities, yet European Jewish migration is considered colonisation. The inconsistency and unwillingness to be egalitarian on the issue, is partially the reason they face accusations o
Do you really not see the difference between integrating into a society, and in many cases a society which made your home country a lot less livable, and forming a giant ethnic mob to kill and forcibly remove the current residents in that destination country? The fact is that Jews lived in Palestine as an accepted minority for centuries and there were no problems of the current kind. There is no inconsistency. Not all movement of people is colonialism. People come to the U.S., name their kids stuff like Becky and Stewart, and aspire to the same goals as those born here. Integration and colonialism are different.
But you'll do better changing people's minds by not engaging in hyperbole, which is what I consider- at best btw- the genocide/apartheid/colonialist labels to be.
There is no hyperbole that could surpass the images and videos coming out of Gaza. Clearly you are afraid to look at them or you would know this. Pussy.
Nonsense. It withdrew to the periphery and maintained Gaza as a huge prison. Gazans weren't allowed an airport or to fish more than three miles out. They weren't allowed free commerce with the world. They were highly constrained. Peaceful protest was met with bullets. Of course they erupted.
I wouldn’t call it a huge prison. It wasn’t a completely independent society, but that partially had to do with the rejection of the peace process with the election of Hamas to the parliament. And I’m not sure why we would accept the notion that it was a huge prison just because they were being partially occupied. The conditions at the time for normalization were set out many times, and rejected many times by Hamas.
I can't understand why people keep calling it a huge open air prison just because the people lack freedom of movement and the area is effectively under occupation.
Yeah it's not really an open air prison. Prisoners usually have rights. Gaza is more of a concentration camp.
I can't understand why people keep calling it a huge open air prison just because the people lack freedom of movement and the area is effectively under occupation.
They didn’t lack freedom to go to Egypt and Jordan.
Oh wait they did because Egypt and Jordan refuse to take them in.
CAIRO (AP) — As desperate Palestinians in sealed-off Gaza try to find refuge under Israel’s relentless bombardment in retaliation for Hamas’ brutal Oct. 7 attack, some ask why neighboring Egypt and Jordan don’t take them in.
The two countries, which flank Israel on opposite sides and share borders with Gaza and the occupied West Bank, respectively, have replied with a staunch refusal. Jordan already has a large Palestinian population.
Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sissi made his toughest remarks yet on Wednesday, saying the current war was not just aimed at fighting Hamas, which rules the Gaza Strip, “but also an attempt to push the civilian inhabitants to ... migrate to Egypt.” He warned this could wreck peace in the region.
Jordan’s King Abdullah II gave a similar message a day earlier, saying, “No refugees in Jordan, no refugees in Egypt.”
https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-j...
They have has the ability to go to other countries and fly out of there. They just weren’t allowed to have their own airport because in the past their airports have been used as terror bases by Hamas. And I mean this is just obviously true because there are Palestinian refugees all over the world.
Look to me I get the analogy, in that the normal citizens that have done nothing wrong are impacted by the restrictions designed to frustrate terrorists. But conversely, it’s not like if Israel was not there that they would have absolute freedom of movement. Hamas has enacted plenty of restrictions on speech, movement, and behavior. Does that mean that they are operating an open air prison?
They just weren’t allowed to have their own airport because in the past their airports have been used as terror bases by Hamas
You got a citation on this one big dawg?
--Wikipedia is extremely biased towards Hamas, so this is basically the pro Hamas version of what happened.
--Seems Israel's position is that as long as Hamas is fighting Israel and kidnapping Israelis, they cant have an airport; and I seriously doubt the events of the last 1.5 years has softened Israel's position any.
--Gaza being allowed to have an airport again (which would have to be rebuilt from scratch as the Palestinians completely looted the old one) definitely will be contingent on Hamas abdicating power and a non belligerent group taking over.
no where in there does it say that Hamas was using the airport as a terror base.
Gaza being allowed to have an airport again (which would have to be rebuilt from scratch as the Palestinians completely looted the old one)
no it would need rebuilt bc Israel destroyed it. are you allergic to the truth?
The fact that he said it’s the largest ethnic cleansing operation since WW2 immediately disqualifies his opinion from being taken seriously.
You know when I tell you that radical leftists control Europe and they are evil monsters inimical to the core values of our civilization?
Well Borrell is one of the examples.
When inhuman monsters like him occupy high level positions in European politics for a long time and don't get treated as the monsters they are by the media and the people (people like him are infinitely worse than Trump or Orban could ever be), when the unlimited horror of radical leftism is normalized at the highest level, then you cannot tell me I am exaggerating the problem.
The only acceptable number in any civil society of people like him holding elected office is zero. Instead we have hundreds at high levels and tens of thousands at lower levels in Europe.
This is existential and nothing worldwide compares to it as a threat to our nations
no where in there does it say that Hamas was using the airport as a terror base.
no it would need rebuilt bc Israel destroyed it. are you allergic to the truth?
I didn't say they were using it as a terror base. An airport is a too high profile target without enough civilian human shields. The hospitals, schools and mosques they do use for bases work much better.
Judaism isn't a threat to our countries, both because jews aren't very numerous, and because modern judaism isn't much different from what we value morally.
You can be an atheist and still realize religions aren't all the same and islam is one of the worst ones socially.
You're saying it's based on personal views on the combatants, in particular their cultures. I never bought this explanation. Most of those who support Israel for other than religious reasons are still conservatives. These are people who want guards posted at bathrooms inspecting people's genitals before they go in. Islam is a conservative religion. The segment of support for Israel we are talking about overlap significantly with the people who had a national temper tantrum when a trans man drank a bud light. Does that sound more like Judaism or Islam? I could actually see MAGA types dropping Christianity and opting for Islam because that is really what they want, to stifle feminism and live in some kind of hyper masculinized authoritarian state (why not a theocracy?).
The ban on alcohol alone more than suffices to consider it a mortal threat to my culture as italian for example. That alone again suffices for me to always stand with enemies of islam in any confrontation , and to always hope any islam on islam war gets as long as possible with as much destruction as possible. They are actively my enemies.
You want them to die because they prohibit alcohol? I'm sorry but I don't believe you. You probably know that Judaism also brings it's own prohibitions on consumption. But you aren't all judgmental and paranoid about those. I suspect the real controlling variable is race. You overlook what you have in common with Islam because they aren't white. You contrive commonalities with Israel because they are white (or whiter than their opposition).
I guess that's it - pure racism. Palestinians are dusky so they are worthy of genocide. I must have forgotten what country I'm living in.
You're saying it's based on personal views on the combatants, in particular their cultures. I never bought this explanation. Most of those who support Israel for other than religious reasons are still conservatives. These are people who want guards posted at bathrooms inspecting people's genitals before they go in. Islam is a conservative religion. The segment of support for Is
In Italy and elsewhere there are center-left parties where the same person asking for homosexual marriage (which isn't legal yet here) is 100% pro Israel so no, i don't buy the "they are conservatives".
In order for the "bathroom gender" opponents to sound like Islam, they would need to ask for the forcible remove *from society* of men dressed like women and of women dressed like men, that's the kind of things we are dealing with in reality.
Judaism is majoritarian in one country, so we have to check what they prohibit legally to others right there. Afaik non kosher-food isn't prohibited in Israel. Alcohol is prohibited in what, 20+ muslim majority countries?
There are white muslims, and especially there are italian-looking semi-white muslims (italians aren't actually white either), from Turkey to Algeria it's obvious italian "ethnicity" is far close to that than we could ever be with german or anglo or dutch or finnish ethnicity, so no it's not about race.
It's about history and identity, islam has been the mortal enemy of my culture and my people for 1k + years. They took our women to rape them and our children as slaves. We fought and spilled blood for the reconquista and in Lepanto and in the Wien siege.
Keep in mind the crucial element that if they were to move on, we would move on with them. We already abandoned the religious ideas that put us into conflict mostly. Whatever religion is left in europe is irrecognizable to a 14th century believer. Problem is islam didn't move on the same, in particular in arab countries.
