Three drunk maniacs!!

Take a walk/smoke break. Realize you are still alive and have the privilege of gambling instead of working the coal mines. Meditate. Think of all the sklansky dollars you’re winning.

I mean those are the games where one dealer you can go from stuck 3 racks to up 3 racks. So it’s about patience and playing the numbers.

But all else fails remember there will always be a game to come back to. Sometimes it’s just not your night.

I used to have the same issue - any time the game got crazy, I seemed to lose. For awhile I started deciding to go to bed when that happened, at least if I was up for the session at that point.

But at some time I decided to start playing them again, and now I'm sure I'm in profit mode. In my 20/40 game when it gets crazy, I can lose $500 or so and then win a huge ($800+) pot that takes me almost a whole round to restack. Then the same thing happens, gradually lose several hundred dollars and then win a big pot which more than makes up for your losses, like the 5s full in your first session.

They will eventually come and you can win if you keep taking your play seriously and don't get involved in the madness unless you have hit something pretty good. If you don't think you can play these kinds of games without tilting though, you will be better off just getting up and coming back the next day when hopefully the game will still be good, but not so crazy. If you start playing crazy yourself you may still manage a big win, but you're also going to have some big losses, like maybe 5 racks instead of 3 (or having to go home after 3 if that's all the money you brought).

I would recommend to keep trying to play when the game gets like this, but if you lose a rack or more (from when it got crazy), go home and try again later. Eventually you will have a time where you start out winning when it gets crazy, which gives you a cushion to play with and hopefully builds your confidence for the next time it gets like that. When you have built your bankroll up big enough that the 3 rack loss doesn't even make a dent in it, you should be able to let that kind of loss slide off your back.

A few times I have lost between 5-6 racks (of $5 chips) in 2-3 hours of play, starting at the beginning of my session, then going home because I have no more money on me.

Now I could still have gone to the ATM, maybe borrowed some money, or just start bringing more cash with me. But carrying more than that makes me nervous and I think if I lose that much in a session I'm unlikely to be playing my best at that point. But it has gotten better - when I first started playing 20/40 regularly I would go home depressed after losing a grand. Now I can lost $2500 and go home disappointed, but not despondent.

I love getting into a mega crazy game. What kills me is when I am totally card dead. All I am asking for is to run normally. What really hurts is seeing other TAGs in the game run normal or great and I am the one left out. Maybe I'm getting "left out" tilt. It's uncanny how poorly I seem run in these games. I start out feeling very optimistic but slowly I start to realize here we go again. I am probably making some mistakes so I'm gonna post a few hands in this thread.

This game only has one maniac at the moment. He posts his kill on the button. The button acts last unless there is a raise in front of him.

This game has one loose passive and the rest are all tight players. If the maniac leaves it's game over.

4 players limp. UTG is a loose/passive. The other three are all tight somewhat nitty players. One of the limpers is capable of limping in with big pocket pair hoping to LRR. All of the tight players limp with hands that typically should be raised like AQ, TT's, KJs etc. They will also limp middle suited connectors, Ace suited, pocket pairs, KJo etc.

The SB folds, and I call in the BB with Kd7d, It now goes to the Button who predictably raises, folded back to me. I consider three betting here. There are times in these games where you can leverage the maniac against the field. I might be able to get the rest to fold. They know the maniac is gonna cap. What do you guy's do here? I ended up just calling and everyone else called.

AhThKh....It's checked to the button who bets, I am next to act...What would you do?

The button will often raise or reraise on the flop but does tend to chill out on later streets.

Here is another one.

Folded to maniac who raises in the LJ, I am next in the HJ and 3 bet Kh7h, it's folded to the Button who calls, the blinds fold, the maniac just calls.....He is eating dinner so his pre flop aggression is dialed back a little it seems. The button is a tight nitty player pre. He is a good hand reader. I suspect he has at least a middle pair or big broadways like KQ or AJ. He may just call pre with AK, AQ or JJ's maybe QQ's. He will call with his suited broadways as well. He seems to only 3 bet with AA's or KK's but small sample.

AhJd3c....It's checked to me. I get ready to bet but see the button prepared to just call. The maniac will often CR here but also just call. He's rarely folding. I decide to check?

AhJd3c9c...It's again checked to me. Do we throw out the bluff here? The maniac is probably not gonna fold but he might. The button will check/call a Jack or a picked up draw or QQ's maybe TT's? that he just called with pre. I think he would bet an Ace but it's possible not. He'll CR a big hand. Are you betting?

How out of line pre flop are you getting against a maniac assuming you think you have a chance to get HU?

My image is tight but the button is aware I can be 3 betting light against the maniac.

Fold, your absolute and relative position are both horrible, and your equity on this board is terrible as well

I would bet the flop. The button going for a call is a sign of weakness and we’ll often get a good card to barrel on the turn. After checking the flop I’m just giving up. We’re basically telling the story of having kk/qq/a jack, and a maniac will put those hands in a “tough” spot (although not really tough as we can safely call down against a maniac)

On the turn I’m thinking I can have the best hand, and just want to show down for as cheap as possible.

As for preflop I think it’s borderline. Probably in this game if we expect a lot of coldcallers/action it’s closer to a fold.

To be clear, the main reason to not try to represent those hands is he may turn a better hand into a bluff accidentally, as I imagine bottom pair/small pairs/broadway draws (some k high) are his main bluffing candidates)

Were you not rolled for 20/40 when you first started playing it? Losing one BI and being depressed about is really bad psychologically as you no doubt know. Losing 2.5 BI s I am more likely to be frustrated than despondent though, lol. But I ain't playing 20/40 yet either.

At that time I had been paying my bills for a few years from mostly playing 10/20. Had played some 20/40 but in games that weren't as wild. I didn't have a large cash bankroll, but I had plenty of money in the bank from selling my house, so it wasn't like I was at risk for going hungry or homeless.

It really wasn't about the number of bets or buyins, but just the dollar amount of the loss. $1k was a psychological barrier, and I had never lost that much in one day playing 10/20. It took me a few years of playing 20/40 to get acclimated to that size losses, plus deliberately remembering the times I won $3k or more in one session.

It's still much easier for me to get myself to the casino the next day after a big win than after a big loss though.

Really interesting take from a seasoned Pro, thank you. When I started playing 8/16 I was a little worried about Kill pot fear but the first time I cut out a raise in a kill I realized it was the same number of chips and the dollar value didn't affect me, which was really good mentally.

I was recently in a not so good 8/16 game at the 'bigger games' casino with 3 30/60 players waiting for their game and 4 players had overs so a Kill with overs made it 32/64 for them. Stacks were flying into the pot, gave me a taste of bigger games.

You can reduce your variance in kill pot games. If you have the leg up button only play with big starting hands. If it’s a kill pot tighten your range up. If you have the SB or BB you’re putting more chips in to call a raise.

If you have a leg up, you should play tighter just to increase your win rate, even if you're not worried about variance.

Odd that the 8/16 game became 32/64 though. Where I play, the overs don't do anything in a kill pot, and I thought that was standard.

At both my casinos here the overs applies in kills as well as long as all the players in the hand have overs of course.

I echo the view that implied odds hands go up greatly in value and that middling offsuit hands go way down in value. I still think hands like KQo and AJo are strong enough in these types of games to put a bunch of money in preflop, but weaker offsuit broadways go down significantly in value. Debating about whether to play hands like 86s is silly - they are not going to be equity hogs and playing them in multi-way capped pots is going to increase your variance significantly, but I have to imagine they are close to EV-neutral in these sorts of games.

I would play more aggressively with strong made hands and more passively with draws (including crappy made hands that are trying to hit trips/two pair/a backdoor draw) post flop than I usually would.

Agree that you should play tighter with the leg up button than you otherwise would in kill games, particularly if you are going to be in early position if you end up killing it.

Yep! They have to defend their leg up.

Yeah, that is a funny one. Theoretically having a kill in the game should make it play tighter, but the opposite is often true.