GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
OKC finished with a 68-24 season with the greatest point differential of all time. They are currently 12-4 in the playoffs with a point differential of around 10. And it took the best player of the last 5 years to win 3 of those. This individual 5 year run is as good as anyone's in the history of the league.They are led by SGA who has an assisted rate of 13.5% in these playoffs
Good job.. You've determined that SGA needs to sweep the Pacers to break my "ball-dominators can't produce great teams, such as dominant title runs with 4 losses max (1 loss per round average), or dynasties (3 in 5).
The numbers are on my side, as I said they would be, and as they always have been, and as they always will be.
The reason that high-scoring, primary ballhandlers (ball-dominators) can't produce great teams is because they have high volume of unassisted buckets, which leaves teammates in spot-up roles with higher assisted rates - these higher assisted rates/spot-up roles reduce teammates' assists, thus producing low assist teams over the long run... The live-dribbling skillset of ball-dominators essentially "hogs" the assists to themselves and relegates teammates to spot-up roles.. Contrastingly, every dynasty used a ball movement system that required ELITE off-ball players, thus precluding today's ball-dominators (like SGA, Luka, Lebron, etc) from ever producing the "best basketball", aka dynasty or dominant champion/title run.
Underdog Status
2010 Celtics vs Cavs (+500 underdog)
1991 Pistons vs Bulls (+210 underdog)
https://www.sportsoddshistory.com/nba-te...
Lebron's MVP quality isn't good enough to be goat because half of his MVP's lack titles, while none have scoring titles.
Otoh, there are 4 times in history that an MVP won the FMVP, scoring title and 1st team defense, and they're all MJ.. The one time that his MVP lacked these things was the year that he won the unprecedented DPOY/MVP combo (88')... Again, it only makes sense that the goat has the best MVP quality, and Lebron's MVP's fall drastically short of this goat requirement.
Secondly, Lebron lost to the fossil Celtics in 2010 despite being twice the favorite that MJ was against the 91' Pistons, and facing 30-somethings compared to MJ facing 20-somethings (Isiah/Dumars/Rodman)... Wade actually led the PPG and APG when Lebron finally got past the fossil Celtics in the 11' ECSF.
Furthermore, it's crazy to think that Zubac, Caruso, Josh Hart, Ingram, Kuzma, Rondo, and KCP weren't a sufficient young core for the "GOAT" to develop into a champion.. Lebron's need to join opposing franchise players proves that he isn't goat, and the fact that he can't produce a winning record with any type of decent roster confirms it (3-4 with preseason favorites, 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, 4-6 with Finals teams, 4-8 with all-star teammates).
Lebron's perennial losing and underperforming good rosters is skillset-based, since all high-scoring, primary ballhandlers (ball-dominators) have high volume of unassisted buckets that leaves teammates standing in spot-up roles with lower assists.. Lower assists from teammates produces low team assist rankings over time, while the weak ball movement and chemistry hurts teammates' performance, aka "needs more help".
Most importantly, Lebron's ball-dominance can't beat top teams at high scoring levels.. This inability to carry the "star" category of scoring requires GM's to get more stars and limits defensive help.. Accordingly Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevents elite roster construction, while his aforementioned "ball-dominator" skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter further hampers roster construction.. This is why he always "needs more help" for 22 seasons, while having many catastrophes and perennially-losing with every team and every type of star teammate... He perennially-lost and got his doors blown off with every team and teammate.
Has it been debunked yet that fallguy is Stephen A's personal assistant?
You saying it's better for MJ to lose the Finals or earlier, so he can say that he lost to the champs like Kareem can... That's absurd... It goes without saying that MJ would've lost to the champs if he lost in the Finals a bunch like Kareem, or lost many times to fellow 1 or 2 seeds (who eventually won the title)... But MJ never lost with top seeds or in the Finals, so you're
You're not rational on the subject. I wasn't posting for you.
Arguing anybody other than LeBron for GOAT career at this point is asinine. But you are entitled to believe whatever you wish to believe - the great bulk of people following basketball are going to disagree.
Just put the 23 years of Kareem next to the 22 years of LeBron. There is no way to say it isn't a good debate. And I say decided edge Kareem.
Kareem 6 titles, 6-4 in finals (plus 3 college titles) ... LeBron 4 titles, 4-6 in finals: strong edge Kareem
Kareem/Lew 3 POY college awards on a Superman super-GOAT level.
Individual stats are obviously off the charts for both players, and hard to give an edge. To look at Kareems first 15 years, points, shooting %, rebounds, blocked shots, assists, and say LeBron is just way better ... looks like BS to me. Kareem has about 3000 more blocks than LeBron, and about 50,000 more changed or denied shots. That matters. I mean just slightly, wouldn't you agree? Stats edge too close to call. LeBron's 25 points per game for 20+ years is Jerry Rice/Rickey Henderson impossible. But on the hidden influence on the game angle, guys like Russell, Chamberlain, Akeem, and Kareem are much higher. If a guy shoots 56% career while scoring 38,000 points and denying enormous amounts of opportunities around the basket, you better make your case of why this just isn't in LeBron's league.
The % of time that one player had the ball over the other is obscene. Big Edge Kareem
MVPs: Kareem 6, LeBron 4
Top 10 MVPs: LeBron 18, Kareem 17
PER: edge LeBron. Keep in mind Bill Russell's PER isn't particularly remarkable, but his influence on winning went way beyond. Some of the GOAT giants share this factor.
Both with super spectacular longevity. Edge LeBron
If only Kareem would of been allowed to join the nba sooner ….
Rookie year : 28/14/4 -> mvp3 , nba2, def2 .
I’m sure that 3 month Summer Time before entering the nba was huge in increasing his skill set .
Imagine not seeing this OKC team as a "great" team if they were to win the Championship.
Kareem was a role player for half his rings and lost many times with the most help of all-time... This is public information.
That's why he was never compared to Jordan or considered goat at any point in his life until the fake goat debate was fabricated by Klutch media..
This is literally what happened.. A complete fabrication.
And everyone that made All-NBA was at least +160 in plus/minus, except Lebron was -64 and over 200 points behind everyone else... So it's obvious fraud and objective fact that he's been propped up by the media... Most people are sick of Lebron and want him to retire asap.. He's ruined the league in many ways aside from the fake debate, such as less competitive/colluding atmosphere, flopping, load management, and turning losing into a GOOD thing that adds to your legacy... But continue on pretending.
Imagine not seeing this OKC team as a "great" team if they were to win the Championship.
Imagine not seeing this OKC team as a "great" team if they were to win the Championship.
Shaq/Penny > Shai/Jaylen
aka weak era...
Or Magic/Worthy... Or Malone/Stockton
Heck, guys like Alonzo and Tim Hardaway compare decently to Shai/Jaylen.. (Alonzo was DPOY and 2nd for MVP in 99').
Accordingly, today's era has weaker players (ball-dominators), and therefore weaker teams..
And of course Lebron created a weaker competitive environment by starting the colluding and flopping, while supporting load management and the easy-scoring format - the less competitive environment has destroyed the league, ratings and outlook (American basketball is dead and falling behind).
Ultimately, ball-domination is a weaker brand of ball, so we're seeing weaker players and teams than previous eras.. Specifically, dynasties aren't possible today because they require ball movement systems that require elite off-ball players - so today's ball-dominators can't have dynasties and have weaker teams in general... Heck, it's just a bunch of ball-dominators today, so 2009 Lebron might 3-peat in this cupcake fest (assuming his trash brand doesn't lose to a 1-star team as a -700 favorite.
If only Kareem would of been allowed to join the nba sooner ….
Rookie year : 28/14/4 -> mvp3 , nba2, def2 .
I’m sure that 3 month Summer Time before entering the nba was huge in increasing his skill set .
Kareem needed the "Michael Jordan" of point guards to win (Magic and before him Oscar), otherwise he was borderline lottery with anything less.. Literally anything... He produced bad teams with HOF casts like Norm Nixon, Jamal Wilkes, Gail Goodrich and many more.. He had 19 players be all-star alongside him (1 for Jordan).
Imagine thinking today was a weak era. The 50th best player in the league would be the 20th best player back in 1995. Half the players from any random season in the 90s wouldn't even be in rotations today.
Not great...
Not great...
Now, they may not win it all, but it won't be because of Shai or their style of ball, it will be because they are young.
Imagine thinking today was a weak era. The 50th best player in the league would be the 20th best player back in 1995. Half the players from any random season in the 90s wouldn't even be in rotations today.
Since the best American player in today's NBA is Ant, and since he's a joke compared to MJ, Robinson, Shaq, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Alonzo, Drexler, Penny, Kemp, Payton, Stockton, and about 20 other guys, it's confirmed that American basketball has cratered and is a complete joke compared to prior eras.
This cratering of American basketball more than offsets the rise in international players, since American players are still the majority of the NBA... This proves conclusively that today's NBA players are vastly inferior to prior eras.
Secondly, today's spaced out, hands-off beginner format produces weaker skills because the best players are PNR ball-dominators that can't play off teammates or elite 5-man basketball... After these top guys, the 50th-best player is a spot-up shooting robot or PNR-dunking big.. All of these simpleton skillsets struggle in the old-school formats of international play, and therefore might not make the league in the 80's or 90's... We already know that 100-200 players from today's NBA wouldn't make the league in the 80's or 90's because the league was much smaller.. Imagine today's league being only the top 200 players - that's a much better league that produces much better teams and competition.
Btw, the Sonics were the best team in the league in 1994 with 64 wins, but they were historically upset by Dikembe's 8 seeded Nuggets... This was after the Sonics upset Hakeem in the 93' Playoffs and then lost an epic 7-game series to Barkley's Suns in the WCF.. They also had 3 All-NBA selections in 1995.
The point is the Sonics were a long-standing, battle-tested organic juggernaut just like the Rockets, Jazz, Spurs, and Blazers.. ALL the western conference contenders in the 90's were long-standing organic juggernauts that took turns winning the western bloodbath - this means that all of Jordan's Finals opponents were battle-tested warriors that were having their banner year with everything going for them - MJ beat 6 buzz saws in the Finals.. 6 freight trains.. He didn't get to face newbie teams in the Finals like the 15' Warriors, 12' Thunder, or 20' Heat
Btw, Shai needs to sweep the Finals to break the "ball-dominators can't produce dominant title runs (4 losses max), aka 0 for 8 in the play-by-play era.. Shai would make it 1 for 8... Of course ball-dominators are 0 for 4 in producing the dynasties, since dynasties require ball movement systems and therefore elite off-ball players (Duncan, Shaq, MJ, Curry).
Kareem needed the "Michael Jordan" of point guards to win (Magic and before him Oscar), otherwise he was borderline lottery with anything less.. Literally anything... He produced bad teams with HOF casts like Norm Nixon, Jamal Wilkes, Gail Goodrich and many more.. He had 19 players be all-star alongside him (1 for Jordan).
Didn’t u had Kareem like top 3 or 4 all time ?
Have you not met FG?
Everything that he can say to make MJ even further ahead of the field he will say. There are literally no good players other than MJ.
And Kobe, because he plays like MJ.
Wonder why 4 losses max is the measure of a dominant title run? Could it be because any less would chop off 2 of the bulls runs where they had exactly 4? Who knows.
Does this rule account for the fact that the first round is 7 games now? Also, uncertain.
MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem.
Yeah.. #4...
But MJ stands alone at #1.. No one was close to his level of domination to win titles..
or "closing" ability.. No one was remotely close to him back then or now... 2-way play - unmatched.. .defense - unmatched.. etc, etc.. .mid-range - shai is a beginner at mid-range compared to MJ
This is why Kareem was never compared to Jordan until the fake goat debate between Lebron and Jordan - it's a strategy by the Lebron fans.. They just want to take down Jordan and are willing to dilute Lebron's own goat case by bringing in Kareem (in the hopes that at least MJ will be diminished)... That shows the extent of MJ's goatness.
Wonder why 4 losses max is the measure of a dominant title run? Could it be because any less would chop off 2 of the bulls runs where they had exactly 4? Who knows.
Does this rule account for the fact that the first round is 7 games now? Also, uncertain.
4 losses max = 1 loss average per round.
That's a clear-cut, intuitive way to measure "dominant title run" or "dominant champion" (whatever you want to call it).
To summarize, in the play-by-play era, there are 12 instances of "the best basketball", which is defined as dynasties (3 in 5), or dominant title runs (4 losses max)... The leading scorer (1st option) for these 12 instances of "the best basketball" were big men or jumpshooters (12 for 12), and never primary ballhandlers (0 for 12).
Big men and jumpshooters score a lot of buckets that are assisted by teammates, which facilitates the ball movement systems that all dynasties have (Bulls, Lakers, Spurs, Warriors)... The 8 dominant title runs are also characterized by a ball movement brand and highly-assisted 1st options for those runs (97' Bulls, 99' Spurs, 01' Lakers, 02' Lakers, 07' Spurs, 17' Warriors, 23' Nuggets, 24' Celtics)... Otoh, primary ballhandlers are assisted on less than 40% of their buckets, so they can't be the elite off-ball players that dynasties require.
This is the history that Shai is fighting against in the Finals - he's fighting to be the first primary ballhandler in the play-by-play era to produce the best basketball (as 1st option).. The reason that the play-by-play era is used is because the term "primary ballhandler" is defined by their assisted rate (mentioned above) - primary ballhandlers typically score buckets on their own and unassisted by teammates, so they have low assisted rates of below 40% (less than 40% of their buckets are assisted by teammates)... Anyone with below a 40% career assisted rate is a primary ballhandler... And regarding Shai's pursuit of a dominant title run this year, he would be the first player to achieve it with under a 47% assisted rate for the playoff run.
MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem.Yeah.. #4... But MJ stands alone at #1.. No one was close to his level of domination to win titles.. or "closing" ability.. No one was remotely close to him back then or now... 2-way play - unmatched.. .defense - unmatched.. etc, etc.. .mid-range - shai is a beginner at mid-range compared to MJThis is why Kareem was never compared to Jordan until the f
The way u portrait him , I don’t get why Kareem higher then Lebron .
Couldn’t never do better then a borderline lottery team without goat PG like magic or oscar .
I mean Lebron never had close to have a goat player with him , contrary to Kareem , magic, Shaq , Kobe, etc….
And yet Lebron won a lot ….
Not mentioning how you said previously how magic wasnt that great , outside of top 10 , and now his the goat pg and the reason Kareem won anything ….
Your narrative keep changing , like any stats u love to use ….
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Recent Thread Cliffs
Lebron's Finals underdog status is due to weak regular season records and not his rosters, since his rosters are initially favored as the preseason favorite.
Specifically, only won 50-57 games with preseason favorites in 12', 14', 16', and 21', so he fell to underdog each year... Lebron's teams were preseason favorite for a record 6 straight times from 11' to 16' (previous record was 3) and also 2021.
The cratering of American basketball more than offsets the rise in international players
Since the best American player in today's NBA is Ant, and since he's a joke compared to MJ, Robinson, Shaq, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Alonzo, Drexler, Penny, Kemp, Payton, Stockton, and about 20 other guys, it's confirmed that American basketball has cratered and is a complete joke compared to prior eras.
This cratering of American basketball more than offsets the rise in international players, since American players are still the majority of the NBA... This proves conclusively that today's NBA players are vastly inferior to prior eras.
AD is the only player in history to arrive on a lottery team and turn them into champion in 1 season (2020)
It's a goat season that he gets no credit for... He produced this goat turnaround by leading the Lakers in scoring and turning a horrific defense into the #1 defense...
1997 is the only "4 on 5" chip ever won by virtue of 4 ppg on 37% by Rodman in the playoffs (and 8 rpg).
The 97' Bulls are also the only title team to have only 2 guys in double figures for the playoff run.. I think this is 3-point era only, but it might be of all-time..
Lebron's ball-dominance can't beat top teams at high scoring levels.. This inability to carry the "star" category of scoring requires GM's to get more stars and limits defensive help
Accordingly, Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevents elite roster construction, while his aforementioned "ball-dominator" skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter further hampers roster construction..
Lebron lost to the fossil Celtics in 2010 despite being twice the favorite that MJ was against the 91' Pistons, and facing 30-somethings compared to MJ facing 20-somethings (Isiah/Dumars/Rodman)... Wade actually led the PPG and APG when Lebron finally got past the fossil Celtics in the 11' ECSF.
The 2019 Lakers had Zubacs, Caruso, Josh Hart, Ingram, Kuzma, Rondo, and KCP, yet Lebron couldn't develop this into a champion like Jordan did far less help (Grant, BJ, Pippen)..
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The way u portrait him , I don’t get why Kareem higher then Lebron .Couldn’t never do better then a borderline lottery team without goat PG like magic or oscar .I mean Lebron never had close to have a goat player with him , contrary to Kareem , magic, Shaq , Kobe, etc….And yet Lebron won a lot ….Not mentioning how you said previously how magic wasnt that
You're forgetting that my top 10 is highly-assisted skillsets because they produce the best teams as 1st option, aka dynasties (3 in 5) or dominant title runs (4 losses max)... Kareem was the leading scorer for the 80's dynasty until 1987, so he was the highly-assisted 1st option that every dynasty needs (and then Worthy took over as the leading scorer for the 87' Playoffs and thereafter).
Otoh, ball-dominators can't make my top 10 because they mostly lose and never produce great teams due to their bad chemistry of turning everyone into spot-up shooter.. They're mostly unassisted by teammates, and the high volume of unassisted buckets leaves teammates standing in spot-up roles.. The spot up roles lower teammates' assists and produces low assist teams.. Accordingly, ball-dominators can't be the elite off-ball players required for the ball movement systems of every dynasty - they can't produce great teams, so they can't be in the top 10.
Essentially, Kareem's highly-assisted skillset produced better teams and won more than Lebron's ball-dominant skillset... And Lebron teamed up with the #2 producer in the league (Wade), which is like Magic teaming up with Bird, so Lebron had equal help to Kareem.... The unions of Kareem/Magic and Lebron/Wade are the biggest team-ups ever, but Kareem won a lot more with his
You're forgetting that my top 10 is highly-assisted skillsets because they produce the best teams as 1st option, aka dynasties (3 in 5) or dominant title runs (4 losses max)... Kareem was the leading scorer for the 80's dynasty until 1987, so he was the highly-assisted 1st option that every dynasty needs (and then Worthy took over as the leading scorer for the 87' Playoffs and
Ok so his great ?
You had me going for a while
Kareem needed the "Michael Jordan" of point guards to win (Magic and before him Oscar), otherwise he was borderline lottery with anything less.. Literally anything... He produced bad teams with HOF casts like Norm Nixon, Jamal Wilkes, Gail Goodrich and many more.. He had 19 players be all-star alongside him (1 for Jordan).
But Kareem is the same players regardless he played with who isnt he ?
and yet u complain he sucked and need a special kind of players like magic which u believe isnt that great (magic style of play) so its hard to follow up someTimes.
