Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
No genocide here, folks, just a horde of desperate people running for food before the IDF butchers them. Up to 124 dead in the last 24 hours, but Israel has the right to do this to them.
Israel will likely continue to do that until they get their hostages back.
we can bet on that if you want
In other news Hamas attacked a bus of aid workers leaving an aid distribution site, murdering and injuring several. They claim the bus was full of Abu Shabab militants, but provided no evidence to back up this claim.
I predict crickets from Western leaders and press that are constantly outraged at everything Israel does, but have a "hear no evil, see no evil" attitude wrt Hamas actions.
Death toll from the Hamas massacre of aid workers is up to 13 with several more kidnapped.
Abu Shabab militants
or
aid workers
remember, theres a reason that Dun and the Zionist crew never post links.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GtMycG9XwAAx...
-I mean, GHF itself announced they were attacked by Hamas. And said Hamas had been directly threatening them for days prior to the massacre. And Abu Shabab gave a statement none of their members were present or involved.
But you are all-in on team Hamas, there is literally no action they could take that would cause your support to waiver, and no evidence that you aren't willing to just hand waive away. So not sure why a link would matter to you one way or another. You made up your mind on October 7th (if not much earlier).
As I said, I wont be holding my breathe Western leaders and media that are hyper critical of Israel will show much concern or moral outrage over this.
I posted a Le Monde article showing the IDF and basically every human rights org relies on these numbers. The BBC link you posted not only finds these number credible but disputes the bullshit claim that they were inflated. Oh here's another link you're too mad and stupid to read:
Your Le Monde article even says that the Israel hasn’t said that. It’s from some nebulous “source”. The public position of Israel is that the numbers are not accurate.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GtMycG9XwAAx...-I mean, GHF itself announced they were attacked by Hamas. And said Hamas had been directly threatening them for days prior to the massacre. And Abu Shabab gave a statement none of their members were present or involved. But you are all-in on team Hamas, there is literally no action they could take that would c
I just asked for a link bc I wasnt sure what incident you were referring to. GHF is an occupation force and controlled by Israel. they are a valid target.
Your Le Monde article even says that the Israel hasn’t said that. It’s from some nebulous “source”. The public position of Israel is that the numbers are not accurate.
Remind me again what sources you're relying on? Just whatever Bibi tells you to think? You tell me what you think the real body count is.
I just asked for a link bc I wasnt sure what incident you were referring to. GHF is an occupation force and controlled by Israel. they are a valid target.
All the employees massacred were Gaza Palestinians who do nothing but deliver aid. Real mask off moment (really, one of many) for you here.
But as I said, Hamas knows if they dont control the aid, they dont control the people. Which is their top priority. So they will kill as many Palestinians as it takes to keep/regain control over the aid.
Remind me again what sources you're relying on? Just whatever Bibi tells you to think? You tell me what you think the real body count is.
We have zero information, because Gaza is being run by theocratic totalitarian fascists that allow no freedom of information, press or speech. The wild thing is given all the well publicized street executions and failed rockets, Hamas themselves are probably responsible for thousands of casualties. But we can do nothing but speculate the number, as Hamas would never admit it.
Instead of speculating about such things, the world should be doing a lot more work getting rid of the fascist theocrats who started this war and make sure we have no accurate, reliable information. But unfortunately it seems most of the Western leaders and press are on Team Hamas and would prefer to take their obvious lies at face value, so here we are.
All the employees massacred were Gaza Palestinians who do nothing but deliver aid.
according to the same people who brought us the beheaded babies hoax and mass rape hoax among countless others.
We have zero information, because Gaza is being run by theocratic totalitarian fascists that allow no freedom of information, press or speech.
no, there are still some journalists left that Israel hasnt murdered yet. but again, it is Israel that does not allow journalists to enter, or even live, in Gaza.
the world should be doing a lot more work getting rid of the fascist theocrats who started this war and make sure we have no accurate, reliable information.
on this ofc I agree. Death to America ofc.
oh and btw, Israel did turn off the internet in the North a few days ago too. kinda weird thing to do if they want to allow information to flow freely.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GtMycG9XwAAx...-I mean, GHF itself announced they were attacked by Hamas. And said Hamas had been directly threatening them for days prior to the massacre. And Abu Shabab gave a statement none of their members were present or involved. But you are all-in on team Hamas, there is literally no action they could take that would c
Absent of evidence, it helps to look at incentives. There is no incentive to harm civilians, but there is huge incentive to prevent Israeli-backed groups from taking advantage of the chaos. I wouldn't be surprised if the people killed represent a moral grey area (civilians with suspected affiliations), but the fact is that the reason Gaza is such a tough nut to crack is because the population is so coordinated when it comes to getting aid through tunnels to fighters and people under siege, so some Machiavellian actions have to be taken.
There's a difference between the Machiavellian actions of the two sides:
For Israel, it's a question of how to use unlimited US taxpayer funding to terrorize civilians enough create chaos and divide and conquer
For Gaza, it's a question of what is necessary to make sure you have full autonomy with zero infiltration over your last strip of land
I can see this story being a PR boost for boomers who have little idea what is actually happening, but to anyone paying close attention to the conflict, even the worst interpretation of the incident (i.e. that they accidentally killed innocent people they thought were backed by the enemy) pales in comparison to the more systematic approach of the Israelis.
Absent of evidence, it helps to look at incentives. There is no incentive to harm civilians, but there is huge incentive to prevent Israeli-backed groups from taking advantage of the chaos. I wouldn't be surprised if the people killed represent a moral grey area (civilians with suspected affiliations), but the fact is that the reason Gaza is such a tough nut to crack is because
In your thought experiment, is there some limit to how much pain and death Hamas can morally be justified in “accidentally” causing for the cause?
Like, if you knew they would ultimately win and drive the Jews completely out but 500,000 civilians would have to be “accidentally” sacrificed, is that morally justified by your calculations?
I wouldn't be surprised if the people killed represent a moral grey area (civilians with suspected affiliations)
Summarily executing civilians with *suspected affiliations* is a bit of a grey area for the World's Most Moral Army, apparently.
Summarily executing civilians with *suspected affiliations* is a bit of a grey area for the World's Most Moral Army, apparently.
We were referring to Hamas massacring aid workers who operate outside their control.
But given Hamas view themselves as Holy warriors fighting for Allah and the Ummah, they would probably except you framing them as the worlds most moral army.
Remind me again what sources you're relying on? Just whatever Bibi tells you to think? You tell me what you think the real body count is.
You’re moving the goalposts. All we’re looking at is the statement “Israel relies on the Hamas-run Gaza health ministry numbers”. My contention was that they do not rely on the numbers. That’s all. What numbers I rely on are irrelevant to that.
If you are asking me what numbers I rely on, I would just be agnostic on whether there are any numbers that are currently accurate. Which doesn’t commit me to trusting Bibi’s numbers or anyone’s.
You’re moving the goalposts. All we’re looking at is the statement “Israel relies on the Hamas-run Gaza health ministry numbers”. My contention was that they do not rely on the numbers. That’s all. What numbers I rely on are irrelevant to that.If you are asking me what numbers I rely on, I would just be agnostic on whether there are any numbers that are currently accurate. Whic
OK cool, so all your whining and bithcing about the number of dead being inaccurate was just sort of pointless and you can't actually dispute the 55,000 figure which the rest of the world accepts as reasonably accurate.
OK cool, so all your whining and bithcing about the number of dead being inaccurate was just sort of pointless and you can't actually dispute the 55,000 figure which the rest of the world accepts as reasonably accurate.
So are you agreeing with the statement that Israel does not rely on those statistics due to them disputing those statistics or are you disagreeing with that statement? Because you were originally defending that statement and it seems like you now agree that’s not true.
The UN’s nuclear watchdog declared Iran is not complying with its obligations for the first time in 20 years. It is thought that a defiant Iran may now intensify its uranium enrichment programme in reprisal for the board of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) voting to find Tehran in repeated breach of its obligations to limit enrichment and to allow inspectors to visit its nuclear sites.
A third uranium enrichment site that Iran announced as a countermeasure to a UN nuclear watchdog resolution has already been built and is ready to operate when equipped with machinery, the head of Iran’s atomic energy organisation Mohammad Eslami has told state media. Iran’s president Masoud Pezeshkian, who campaigned on reaching out to the west, struck a harder line after the IAEA vote: “I don’t know how to cooperate with the outside world to stop them from doing evil acts and let the people live independently in this country,” he said. “We will continue down our own path; we will have enrichment.”
Iran’s retaliation to any Israeli aggression will be “more forceful and destructive” than in past offensives, Revolutionary Guards commander Hossein Salami told state media, after Tehran said it had been alerted of a potential attack. Tensions have been rising in the region, with the US state department saying yesterday that it had ordered the departure of all nonessential personnel from the US embassy in Baghdad and US broadcaster CBS reporting that US officials have been informed that Israel is “fully ready” to launch an attack on Iran.
Sounds like we might be going to war with Iran soon and we will be happy we kept Israel as an ally.
what obligations does Iran have around its nuclear program? Trump ended the treaty many years ago?
