Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
I get that, but it's hard not to tilt in poker as well. Playing the long game always requires more discipline. This is a great opportunity for them to shift the moral argument a bit further in their direction. "Look, this is why we need nukes," is a pretty good point right now. As I've said many times in this thread, the main thing Iran/China/Russia are fighting are the US prin
The IRGC is essentially a theocratic gerontocracy, and every generation the Iranian people are becoming less religious and supportive. Unlike Gaza, the young people of Iran do not support their theocracy, its rhetoric, or its decision to prioritize imperial adventurism in the Arab world over domestic concerns. In short, morale is extremely low; so a "long game" strategy does not necessarily benefit them.
That being said, the status quo in Iran is very advantageous to the CCP. To survive, the IRGC will increasingly have to rely on the CCP propping it up against its own people and its foreign enemies.
what did Iran start?
when you talk about "theocracy" are you referring to the Israelis that believe thousands of years ago god gave any Jew on the planet the right to move to Palestine and steal land and enslave the local population?
The current conflict basically started in 1979 when Khomeini took power and declared an intent to destroy Israel, and the IRGC has been working towards that end for 45 years. The conflict has had hot and cold periods over that time span (this being a particularly hot period), but that is the crux of when it started and what the objectives are.
The basic disagreement is the IRGC does not think Israel should exist and is working towards destroying it; and Israel does not want to be destroyed.
I get that, but it's hard not to tilt in poker as well. Playing the long game always requires more discipline. This is a great opportunity for them to shift the moral argument a bit further in their direction. "Look, this is why we need nukes," is a pretty good point right now.
It's not tilt though. It's ambition and politics. Playing the long game may only be rational for a leader* if they think they will survive the short term. Although in this case reality may not provide many other options than the long game. Yes it's clear why they want nukes and while many might hate the idea, we can't disagree with that reasoning.
As I've said many times in this thread, the main thing Iran/China/Russia are fighting are the US printing press and US public opinion. Iran has already whittled public opinion down to the point where there's no appetite for a ground invasion (and likewise, for Russia and China, it's unlikely the US would commit substantial troops, let alone conscripts, to defending Estonia or Taiwan). Fortunately for these countries, the US has Israel to do stuff like this to make people question who is the good guy.
The US/Israel drastically overestimate the effectiveness of technology and drastically underestimate the importance of morale when it comes to winning long-term conflicts. How many times do they have to fail to meet long-term objectives abroad before they realize this?
Yep. So much short term thinking particualrly by those who support Netayahu. He has put the whole future of Israel at serious risk and those who are certain it's going great (or the bizarre 'once and for all') would also have had napolean and hitler as winners - not suggetsing they would support them but that they had so clearly won their wars in the eyes of those who judge on what may barely even be the beginning of the beginning.
Just a final point. I'm not sure the future of warfare is substantial troops.
*there may be a rare leader who puts principles first but I'm not sure those sorts of people get to be leaders very often
isreal is secular... Theres a very big difference of a country with a religion then a country being ABOUT a religion
what did Iran start?
when you talk about "theocracy" are you referring to the Israelis that believe thousands of years ago god gave any Jew on the planet the right to move to Palestine and steal land and enslave the local population?
well they were warned multiple times and had 5 meetings about nuclear regulations. Unfortunately for them there wont be a 6th since most of their negotiation team is dead. Guess they overestimated their position a bit f around and find out.
No sane people are going to allow this "insane theocracy" to get nuclear weapons who would definitely use it on their neighbor. I know you don't believe it but why risk it? Even if Israel think there's a 1% chance they can make a nuclear bomb its worth it for them they have the power go cry about it. This isn't gaza iran used to be a world power before they kicked out the shah and became religious fanatics
It's not tilt though. It's ambition and politics. Playing the long game may only be rational for a leader* if they think they will survive the short term. Although in this case reality may not provide many other options than the long game. Yes it's clear why they want nukes and while many might hate the idea, we can't disagree with that reasoning. Yep. So much short term thinki
Since Obama passed the JSPOA, Iran spent the last 10 years aggressively building up its proxy forces to surround Israel, with the stated intent to destroy Israel when the time was right. The success of Hamas 10/7 attack from only one front from the weakest tentacle of the octopus was a wake up call to Israel just how vulnerable they were.
I understand you are of the opinion Israel should have just allowed the IRGC and its proxies to tighten the noose indefinitely while Israel explored political solutions. But the fundamental issue that you dont really acknowledge is that unlike the Sunni world, the IRGC and its proxies have been steadfastly adamant for 45 years they have zero interest in political solutions wrt Israel.
well they were warned multiple times and had 5 meetings about nuclear regulations. Unfortunately for them there wont be a 6th since most of their negotiation team is dead. Guess they overestimated their position a bit f around and find out.No sane people are going to allow this "insane theocracy" to get nuclear weapons who would definitely use it on their neighbor. I know you d
Trump has said the door is still open for a 6th meeting when Iran is ready.
And the entire world with the exception of the Trump administration and Netanyahu govt has been very willing to allow Iran to develop nuclear weapons. Whether this is "sane" I dont know; but it is the reality of the situation.
Iran are such losers like all Islamic states. They remind me of 3 year old children who throw tantrums but don't ask themselves why they are in a tantrum or just forget why they are mad and crying and don't realize its all self inflicted.
Trump has said the door is still open for a 6th meeting when Iran is ready.
And the entire world with the exception of the Trump administration and Netanyahu govt has been very willing to allow Iran to develop nuclear weapons. Whether this is "sane" I dont know; but it is the reality of the situation.
sure but they don't have the nukes pointed at them. easy to say from their high horse
Since Obama passed the JSPOA, Iran spent the last 10 years aggressively building up its proxy forces to surround Israel, with the stated intent to destroy Israel when the time was right. The success of Hamas 10/7 attack from only one front from the weakest tentacle of the octopus was a wake up call to Israel just how vulnerable they were.I understand you are of the opinion Isr
I dont mind us disgareeing but you do not understand my opinion.
I also think you're concluson from '45 years of zero interest' is naive (even assuming it's true).
I almost never post in this thread, in large part because I rarely feel that I have anything useful to say.
But I do think people should be able to recognize that Trump is bad for Israel, regardless of whether they wholly approve of, wholly despise, or have mixed feelings about the Israeli government.
And when I say that he is bad for Israel, I don't mean that he is good for Palestinians.
Trump has said the door is still open for a 6th meeting when Iran is ready.
And the entire world with the exception of the Trump administration and Netanyahu govt has been very willing to allow Iran to develop nuclear weapons. Whether this is "sane" I dont know; but it is the reality of the situation.
iran has pulled out! they are gonna sob in the corner and send another 100 drones to get shot down
well they were warned multiple times and had 5 meetings about nuclear regulations. Unfortunately for them there wont be a 6th since most of their negotiation team is dead. Guess they overestimated their position a bit f around and find out.No sane people are going to allow this "insane theocracy" to get nuclear weapons who would definitely use it on their neighbor. I know you d
did you believe the Iraq WMD story too?
"insane theocracy" to get nuclear weapons who would definitely use it on their neighbor.
lol pure ignorance. up is down and war is peace with you liberals.
Israel actions are inspiring.
What Israel is doing to Iran, the west should do to every single country worldwide that doesn't bend the knee to us.
Let the lion rising be the west, getting it's deserved place on the world stage again.
Absolutely!
This officially thrusts Bibi into possibly the greatest leader of all time. He has taken out Hamas, Hezbollah, and now Iran. The world can breathe easier. Obviously this is not a good day for the Jew haters but then again I guess there haven't been too many except for Oct 7th.
I almost never post in this thread, in large part because I rarely feel that I have anything useful to say. But I do think people should be able to recognize that Trump is bad for Israel, regardless of whether they wholly approve of, wholly despise, or have mixed feelings about the Israeli government. And when I say that he is bad for Israel, I don't mean that he is good for P
Neat! Now explain yourself.
did you believe the Iraq WMD story too?
lol pure ignorance. up is down and war is peace with you liberals.
obviously I can't know if Iran is close to a nuclear weapon but they are my enemy so I don't really care that much Iraq is also way better off. Lol liberal? didn't you just call Dunyain a conservative like 7 posts ago for agreeing with me. I feel like this issue is not as left and right as most are. its more common sense bringing conservatives like him and liberals like me together!
Since Obama passed the JSPOA, Iran spent the last 10 years aggressively building up its proxy forces to surround Israel, with the stated intent to destroy Israel when the time was right. The success of Hamas 10/7 attack from only one front from the weakest tentacle of the octopus was a wake up call to Israel just how vulnerable they were.I understand you are of the opinion Isr
When a country has stated they want to kill you and they will use nukes if they get them you should take them seriously. We all knew this day would come. The world should be applauding Israel for taking out a threat to everybody. Unfortunately they can't get pass their hate to do so.
obviously I can't know if Iran is close to a nuclear weapon but they are my enemy so I don't really care that much Iraq is also way better off. Lol liberal? didn't you just call Dunyain a conservative like 7 posts ago for agreeing with me. I feel like this issue is not as left and right as most are. its more common sense bringing conservatives like him and liberals like me toge
When people have such venomous hate common sense gets thrown out. I'm shocked people engage this troll and his tired schtick. Anybody comparing this situation to the Iraq WMD already know they have lost their argument.
It's easier said than done, they call themselves "the Jewish State" and believe that all their actions are justified by a magic book from thousands of years ago.
It is technically a Jewish state. I don't believe in the hocus pocus nonsense but it did seem reasonable these people should have a safe place to live given their history.
its funny because in the few other unfortunate conversations I've had with victor I agreed with him on some points so he should definitely think im right leaning....
I think being a tanky is not a left or right thing. its just a mental illness
I get that, but it's hard not to tilt in poker as well. Playing the long game always requires more discipline. This is a great opportunity for them to shift the moral argument a bit further in their direction. "Look, this is why we need nukes," is a pretty good point right now. As I've said many times in this thread, the main thing Iran/China/Russia are fighting are the US prin
The world knows Iran is the bad guy. They won't praise Israel publicly but they know this was a necessary move. The stupid people might go for your "Look, this is why we need nukes" plan.
You do need discipline in poker. You also need to know how to play the game.
It is technically a Jewish state. I don't believe in the hocus pocus nonsense but it did seem reasonable these people should have a safe place to live given their history.
Do people not know what a theocracy is tho?
"a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god."
The leader of Israel is just a dude they voted in. The leader of iran is pretty much the pope.
Its a very silly outdated system.... like religion in general but there's a huge difference between being a jewish country and a jewish theocracy.
Like America is a Christian country. it is not a Christian theocrazy...
Its kind of a big difference
I am not Jewish, but I know a fair number of Jewish people. The starting point for almost all of them on Israel is (i) they want Israel to be accepted as a member of the world community (i.e., to not be a pariah state); and (ii) they want Israel to be reasonably secure. Beyond that starting point, their views are all over the place. Some are Bibi-style hard liners. Others are wildly critical of the Israeli government. But they generally agree on (i) and (ii) as high-level goals.
As the conflict widens, the probability and scope of both direct and indirect U.S. involvement on the side of Israel increases. (FWIW, I don't think that is really a function of Trump being president. It's largely an artifact of the historical relationship and probably would be true no matter who was president.) In other words, an escalating conflict almost inexorably drives the Trump administration and the Israeli governement closer together. I don't think that a closer relationship with Trump is helpful if your long term wish is for Israel to shed the label of a pariah state and to be accepted in the world community.
When a country has stated they want to kill you and they will use nukes if they get them you should take them seriously. We all knew this day would come. The world should be applauding Israel for taking out a threat to everybody. Unfortunately they can't get pass their hate to do so.
Iran has never said they are going even get nukes let alone use them. why do you guys have so much trouble with basic simple facts?
