Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
I am not Jewish, but I know a fair number of Jewish people. The starting point for almost all of them on Israel is (i) they want Israel to be accepted as a member of the world community (i.e., to not be a pariah state); and (ii) they want Israel to be reasonably secure. Beyond that starting point, their views are all over the place. Some are Bibi-style hard liners. Others a
I think Israelis know by now that they will never be "accepted in the world community". I also don't think they care.
It's very funny that conservatives are now arguing that people who are religious deserve to be slaughtered en masse.
buddy I voted liberal in Canada I'm so much further left then you. see my last post and change victor with you.
also pretty sure being anti religion is a left wing thing. see communism
It is actually a little surprising, but even what you would call "anti-Zionist" or at least "anti Netanyahu" Israeli social media are ok with the Iran strikes.
I guess the IRGC spending the last 45 years chanting "Death to Israel" and then surrounding and attacking Israel (either through proxies or more recently directly) has had some galvanizing effect.
buddy I voted liberal in Canada I'm so much further left then you. see my last post and change victor with you.
also pretty sure being anti religion is a left wing thing. see communism
I'm pretty sure "these people deserve to die, they're religious" is right-wing authoritarianism, but I understand you guys do love to play this "actually, I'm a liberal" game.
I'm pretty sure "these people deserve to die, they're religious" is right-wing authoritarianism, but I understand you guys do love to play this "actually, I'm a liberal" game.
No that's literally leftist authoritarianism, as radical leftism is atheist. Right-wing authoritarianism had the local church on it's side almost every time. From Mussolini to Franco to Pinochet up to Putin today.
ah yes can you quote me when I said they should die? Being anti religion is a super left wing idea. most right wingers are bible thumping morons who think church and state should not be separate. I don't think an American president has ever admitted to not being religious
I also think the whole "Trump is doing Netanyahu's bidding" to be extremely bad faith. Remember, in Trump's first term he dismantled the JCPOA and assassinated Iran's top general in Iraq. Both of these things had nothing to do with Israel. For good or bad, weakening the IRGC seems to be a priority for Trump independent of Netanyahu or Israel.
Strengthening/stabilizing Iran was an important component of Obama/Biden foreign policy. So I suspect with Trump this is more about his general campaign of attempting to undo everything Democrats have done since Obama came into office.
And in this respect, I think history has shown Trump's instincts towards the IRGC is the better one. I think many in Obama's Iran team were literal spies working for Iran (and the State Dept has very quietly admitted as much). But I think among some, including Obama himself, there was a hope that Iran would use the breathing room from the JCPOA to stabilize internally. Instead, they have pretty much ignored their own country and undertook a campaign of aggressive imperialism that massively destabilized the Arab world through propping up Islamist militias/terrorist groups.
Traitors like troll and vic are great at making things up to push narratives . in the last 6 posts I been accused of saying people deserve to die because of religion and been called both a conservative and liberal. Cheering for your ideologic enemies is just so weird. Its not a left vs right issue just because a lot of people make it one. mental illness
Traitors like troll and vic are great at making things up to push narratives . in the last 6 posts I been accused of saying people deserve to die because of religion and been called both a conservative and liberal. Cheering for your ideologic enemies is just so weird. Its not a left vs right issue just because a lot of people make it one. mental illness
you said you supported strikes by Israel which were on civilian apartment buildings in Iran to kill civilian scientists because Iran is a "theocracy." maybe you should self reflect on your own dissonance.
I also think the whole "Trump is doing Netanyahu's bidding" to be extremely bad faith. Remember, in Trump's first term he dismantled the JCPOA and assassinated Iran's top general in Iraq. Both of these things had nothing to do with Israel. For good or bad, weakening the IRGC seems to be a priority for Trump independent of Netanyahu or Israel.Strengthening/stabilizing Iran wa
Europe has always been much more Iran-friendly (and not only because of the anti-Israel stuff), especially Italy and France . The Obama iran deal was touted as a great success for europe at the time.
At some time Iran was also seen as a possible local opponent of sunni radical islam and there was some substance to that in some sense.
Trump doing the opposite thus should also be linked to his generic anti-european stance, and his great love of KSA.
you said you supported strikes by Israel which were on civilian apartment buildings in Iran to kill civilian scientists because Iran is a "theocracy." maybe you should self reflect on your own dissonance.
I never said that actually. time to check in.
its funny tho because in the russia thread i soft defended collateral damage because it just what happens in war and so did you. but when its western people or allies doing the bombing all of a sudden its a huge issue with you. We don't even know how many civilians were killed last night. and since Iran does not hide behind civilians like hamas does its unlikely to be very high
But man another blatant lie I had no idea apartment buildings were even targeted . How would i know that. Iran turned off their internet and controls the media how could I possibly know? We actually won't know the full scoop for quite some time
I never said that actually. time to check in.its funny tho because in the russia thread i soft defended collateral damage because it just what happens in war and so did you. but when its western people or allies doing the bombing all of a sudden its a huge issue with you. We don't even know how many civilians were killed last night. and since Iran does not hide behind civilians
Russia takes much better care than the West to avoid civilian casualties. in fact, the West looks to maximize them. look up the Israeli "wheres daddy?" doctrine. and when Russia loosened its guidelines and massacred people in Sumy recently I was critical of them and even compared them to Israel.
but we do know that tons of civilians were killed. entire apartment buildings and city blocks were hit. they literally targeted civilian scientists in their homes and apartments.
But man another blatant lie I had no idea apartment buildings were even targeted . How would i know that. Iran turned off their internet and controls the media how could I possibly know? We actually won't know the full scoop for quite some time
the civilian casualties are going to be super high. I dont understand how you havent seen the pictures, videos, and reports from mainstream sources, the Israeli goverment, the USA, and Iran itself.
they, are the "fair amount of Jews" that you know. its actually pretty shocking that you know so many Jews and not a single one is anti-Zionist. they all support Israel.
when only a miniscule number of Muslims supported the extremist Salafi ISIS ideology, it was used to paint the entire religion of billions as violent and scary. but the overwhelming number of Jews support Israel as a genocidal, expansionist project of ethno-supremacism. I just find it interesting. ideally ofc Jews would fix their religion by kicking out the murderous Zionists.
I think Israelis know by now that they will never be "accepted in the world community". I also don't think they care.
As if the majority of the years since the creation of Israel state wasnt supported by the rest of the world ….
Yeah, a state acting like the last few years by Israel will never have much support isn’t a surprise .
I mean do u have an example of another country acting like Israel the last 2 years that have support by the rest of the world ?
How strange but hey, nah it’s because they are Jews excuses ?
lol….
they, are the "fair amount of Jews" that you know. its actually pretty shocking that you know so many Jews and not a single one is anti-Zionist. they all support Israel. when only a miniscule number of Muslims supported the extremist Salafi ISIS ideology, it was used to paint the entire religion of billions as violent and scary. but the overwhelming number of Jews support I
Ah so it’s an empirical problem you have. Here’s some clarity: Israel good, genocidal terrorist Muslims bad. Hope that helps!
no, its a matter of perspective. you think its good to slaughter, torture, imprison, starve, rape, enslave, etc the people that White Supremacists deem as lesser. I dont.
Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has vowed a harsh response to Israeli attacks
Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, has said Israel will suffer a "bitter and painful" fate, following attacks Friday on Iranian targets. Iran's military has warned there will be "no limits" to its response.
Israel's military has said over 100 targets in Iran were struck overnight, which were followed up later in the day by another series of strikes.
I m curious what Khamenei's strategy is at this point. From an outsider, it would feel like sitting back as much as you can, let the hate against Israel build, do some fake /short term diplomacy and maybe even attempt o reckon the situation, even just to lower yourself as a target to attack later seems better than announcing death.
He could very well be serious and is and will be attacking Isarel in some serious manner but going the NK route of writing death to whom ever with a giant red crayon on a fake missle to stoke fear and bring attention doesn't seem optimal.
Europe has always been much more Iran-friendly (and not only because of the anti-Israel stuff), especially Italy and France . The Obama iran deal was touted as a great success for europe at the time.At some time Iran was also seen as a possible local opponent of sunni radical islam and there was some substance to that in some sense.Trump doing the opposite thus should also be l
As with the Obama administration, some European decision makers were just on the IRGC payroll, and that explains their pro IRGC stance. But on top of this there seemed to be some wish casting by European elites that despite their completely unmoderate rhetoric, the IRGC would be a moderating force in the region if we loosened sanctions.
Instead, true to their rhetoric the IRGC embarked on an aggressive imperial campaign in the Arab world that destroyed at least 4 nations and destabilized the whole region. And on top of this the IRGC has been an important supplier for Russia's aggressions in Ukraine.
Interestingly, as evidenced by their quick recognition and acceptance of the anti-IRGC coupe in Syria, European elites seem to have recognized their mistake and pivoted towards supporting the Sunni Muslim Brotherhood Qatar/Turkey axis.
Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has vowed a harsh response to Israeli attacks
They have been promising to destroy Israel for 45 years. Khamenei's rhetoric today isn't any different than it was 1 week ago, or 20 years ago. The only difference is there is expectation for the IRGC to do something in the short term in response to Israel's actions.
It does not in fact do this.
"Some Russian air strikes appear to have directly attacked civilians or civilian objects by striking residential areas with no evident military target and even medical facilities, resulting in deaths and injuries to civilians," Amnesty's Philip Luther said.
"Such attacks may amount to war crimes," he added.
The Syrian Network for Human Rights (SNHR) and Violations Documentation Centre (VDC) stated that from its inception in September 2015 until the end of February 2016, Russian air strikes killed at least 2,000 civilians. SNHR report stated that civilian deaths from the Russian offensive had exceeded those caused by the Islamic State and the Syrian Army since Russian operations began. The UK-based pro-opposition Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) issued a slightly lower estimate: at least 1,700 civilians, including more than 200 children. Weapons used included unguided bombs, cluster bombs, incendiaries similar to white phosphorus and thermobaric weapons. By the end of April 2018, the SOHR documented that Russian bombings directly killed more than 7,700 civilians, about a quarter of them children, apart from 4,749 opposition fighters and 4,893 IS fighters. The Russian campaign has been criticised by numerous international bodies for indiscriminate aerial bombings across Syria that target schools and civilian infrastructures and carpet bombing of cities like Aleppo. The findings of BMJ Global Health and a UN investigation report published in 2020 revealed that the RuAF also "weaponized health-care" through its hospital bombardment campaigns; by pursuing a deliberate policy of bombing ambulances, clinical facilities, hospitals and all medical infrastructure.[c] Russia also reportedly employed double tap strikes to target relief workers.
During the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Russian military have carried out deliberate attacks against civilian targets and indiscriminate attacks in densely-populated areas. The United Nations Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine says the Russian military exposed the civilian population to unnecessary and disproportionate harm by using cluster bombs and by firing other weapons with wide-area effects into civilian areas, such as missiles, heavy artillery shells and multiple launch rockets.As of 2025, the attacks had resulted in the UN-documented deaths of between 13,000 and estimated 40,000 dead civilians.
saying this with a straight face after watching Israel almost exclusively target civilians across 7 countries the last 2 years and in particular the day after leveling city blocks to hit civilian scientists is pretty incredible.
