GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

^^^ teams mostly lose when the 2nd option is destroyed, so MJ should get PROPS for "struggling" to beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, since it's quite rare and a goat caliber achievement:

98' ECF

Pippen.... 16 on 39%
Smits....... 16 on 55%

^^^ this bed-wetting was a continuation of Pippen's WORST-EVER efficiency in those playoffs (previous post), which any other player would lose with... But MJ is goat, so he was able to pull out the miracle wins and carry the goat burden required.

Furthermore, Pippen personally gave away Game 4 by missing 2 FT's immediately preceding Miller's push-off winner over MJ.. The cameras and announcers covered how the Pacer players were trash-talking Pippen at the FT line - he obliged them by bricking 2 FT's badly, which gave the game away.

Secondly, you posted numbers like BPM, VORP, WS/48 and TS that showed Miller was much better than Hughes, while my comparison of Hornacek vs Klay was a 100% blowout margins in all the stats... The reason that those stats are relevant is specifically because of the across-the-board consensus in all the categories, at blowout margins.. I also used career stats, so it wasn't cherry-picked like your comparison.. Miller's career stats destroy Hughes, Klay, or even Hornacek.

So again, the consensus was that the 15' Warriors weren't a good roster, such as +2800 preseason odds and a lower producer than Hornacek at 2nd option.. So the 67 and 73 wins means that CURRY did a goat thing, not Lebron.. Lebron doesn't deserve props for beating a 1-man team with the only "big 3" super-team in the league and the preseason favorite.

FG , the cherry picking stats / double standard phenom !

Peak is peak regardless of the players …

I mean u even go as far as choosing a 4 game span
Playoffs for Horry to say is equivalent to pippen lol…

All we do is show u how your arguments are dumb not that we abide by them ….
U really believe I believe Kobe is better scorer the. Mj because of a 1 game Kobe did ?
lol obviously not but that is what you non stop .

Exactly and you use that argument to
Blame pippen isn’t good lol.

If pippen would of take over , mj wouldn’t be the goat right ?
U claim pippen suck because he could not overshadow the goat lol….what a dumb comparaison by using other number 2 …

I used the entirety of NBA history, which is the opposite of cherry-picking - Pippen had the worst efficiency EVER, and he did it twice, so MJ won with the biggest lane-clogger ever - no one had to win with less spacing or a bigger bricklayer at sidekick than MJ.

The point is that Jordan's performance can only be compared to the very best like Wilt and Kobe, while Pippen's performance is comparable to bums like Horry, Hughes and Iguodala - Pippen never played above an Iguodala caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.

Pippen can't take over, so stop saying "IF pippen could take over"... He can't.. That's the point... And if MJ is the only guy that can take over, than it's a 1-man team.. He's the only guy that could win multiple chips this way (being the only guy on his team that could take over, aka 1-man team).

And Pippen couldn't even reach peak Horry or Iguodala caliber, or get within 10 ppg of Jordan in a playoff series... Pippen averaged 10-30 points less than MJ in every series, while everyone else in history needed teammates to lead in scoring for entire playoff runs.. So MJ is the goat, BY FAR... (edit: there are 3 series where pippen got within 9, 8, and 4 ppg of MJ).

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"DOMINANT CHAMPIONS" THAT AVERAGED 1 LOSS PER ROUND OR LESS (4 LOSSES MAX) AND THE 1ST OPTION FOR THAT RUN:

1. 2017 Warriors (16-1)......... DURANT

2. 2001 Lakers (15-1)............. SHAQ

3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)............... DUNCAN

4. 2024 Celtics (16-3)............. TATUM

5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4).......... JOKIC

6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)............... DUNCAN

7. 2002 Lakers (15-4).............. SHAQ

8. 1997 Bulls (15-4).................. JORDAN

"DYNASTIES" THAT MOSTLY WON FOR A MATERIAL STRETCH OF 5+ YEARS (I.E. 3 IN 5) AND THEIR 1ST OPTION:

1. Chicago Bulls....................... JORDAN

2. San Antonio Spurs.............. DUNCAN

3. Los Angeles Lakers............. SHAQ

4. Golden State Warriors........ CURRY

PROVEN BASKETBALL FACT:

Since possession-tracking began in 1997, bigs or jumpshooters were required at 1st option for 8 of 8 "dominant champions" that averaged 1 loss or less per round for their title run (4 losses max), and 4 of 4 "dynasties" that mostly won for a material stretch of 5 years (i.e. 3 in 5).. So that's 12 of 12 instances of dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball) where primary ball-handlers were NOT the 1st option in favor of bigs or jumpshooters.. Since the best bigs and jumpshooters produce the best basketball, they're superior to the best ball-dominators, which easily puts guys like Lebron and Oscar out of the top 10 for anyone that doesn't want them to be there - i.e. since primary ball-handlers cannot be 1st option for the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can.

The issue is that high-scoring primary ballhandlers, aka ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron or SGA score large amounts without being assisted by teammates (low assisted rates), so they have a large volume of unassisted buckets that leaves teammates standing in spot-up roles.. These spot-up roles crater teammates' assists, so the team has low assist rankings over time..

Ultimately, since every dynasty uses a ball movement system that requires ELITE off-ball players, this precludes the weaker ball movement of ball-dominators from ever producing a dynasty or dominant champion (the best basketball).

The stats below confirm that Jordan's 6 rings are equal or bigger carry-jobs then 94' Hakeem or 11' Dirk:

PLAYOFFS

94' Hakeem........ 27.7 PER.... 8.5 BPM... 2.6 VORP... 0.208 WS/48... 28.9 ppg
94' Horry'............ 16.7 PER.... 5.0 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.152 WS/48... 11.7 ppg
GAP.......................... 11.0.............3.5............... 1.2............ 0.056............ 17.2

93' Jordan'........... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen........... 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP.......................... 13.2............ 9.6............... 2.1............. 0.187............ 15.0

11' Dirk'................ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry............... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP........................... 4.9...............1.1.............. 0.5.............. 0.031........... 10.2

92' Jordan''........... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen............ 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP............................ 7.1............. 3.3.............. 0.8.............. 0.048............ 15.0

91' Jordan'............ 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen............ 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP.......................... 10.0............. 8.1.............. 1.4............... 0.136............. 9.5

96' Jordan'............ 26.7 PER... 10.7 BPM... 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen............ 19.4 PER..... 7.8 BPM... 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP............................. 7.3............. 2.9.............. 0.6.............. 0.122........... 13.8

97' Jordan'............. 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen............. 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP............................. 9.1............. 4.8.............. 1.0.............. 0.090.......,... 11.9

98' Jordan'............. 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen............. 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP............................. 8.7............. 3.4............... 0.8.............. 0.095.......... 16.4

Every "duo" in history was close statistically except MJ/Pippen, who weren't any more of a "duo" than Hakeem/Horry or Dirk/Terry:

Accordingly the statistical record confirms that Pippen's burden or production rates weren't all-time caliber, and therefore his performance was inflated by the winning spotlight to all-time status and media accolade

Here's the official rational for putting Bill Russell in my rankings:

Bill Russell's era was 2-pointer basketball, so the lack of spacing allowed teams to win with defense... This means that MVP's in the 2-pointer eras can be defensive players like Russell... Otoh, when the 3-point line began, the spacing made offense more important and effective, so all MVP's were dominant offensive players - 45 of 45 MVP's since 1980 have been dominant offensive players.... So my requirement to be a dominant offensive player only applies to players from 3-pointer basketball.. Guys from the 2-pointer era actually must be great defenders and don't even need to be great offensive players..

So my top 10 stands and is 100% accurate - let's review the rankings and criteria... First of all, ball-dominators or primary ballhandlers are excluded from my top 10 because they've never been 1st option for "the best basketball", aka dynasties or dominant title runs - see previous post above... All the 1st options for dynasties or dominant title runs were jumpshooters or bigs, so the best jumpshooters or bigs make up my top 10... Accordingly the top 10 is a subjective mix of the best bigs and jumpshooters, such as MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Kobe, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic.... Ultimately, every dynasty used ball movement systems that required ELITE off-ball players at 1st option, so ball-dominators can't have great teams as 1st option, and therefore can't be in the top 10...

Those bums couldn’t hold a sieve to Eaton, Bailey & Hansen. Greg Foster started in the ‘98 Finals. Chris Morris & Adam Keefe was the SF rotation. The Jazz Finals teams finished 9th & 17th in DRtg. From 1985-91 they finished 1-5-1-1-1-5-6.

What killed the Jazz was not trading Rickey Green at peak value prior to the 1986 Draft (after Stockton’s 2nd season) to acquire Hornacek, or to acquire something else useful (big depth esp offense at the 5) and just draft Horny instead of Dell Curry. They make the Finals at least 7/11 times between 88-98 had they done what was glaringly obvious at the time—take the Midwestern Stockton.

1986 Draft career Win Shares: Hornacek 108.9 Rodman 89.8 Price 71.1 Harper 65.8 Daugherty 65.2….DCurry 41.5(10th)

Hornacek 2765 more reg season MP than Harper, who’s over 2200 ahead of Person & 2300 ahead of Rodman.

1998 Finals 3pt shooting: Bulls 26/88 (Pippen 6/26!), Jazz 13/60.

/jazztardaidsderail

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MJ is the most double-teamed player ever

During the Bulls-Pistons series, the Pistons' 4th quarter policy was to double-team MJ every single time he touched the ball.. Here's an examle from Game 6 of 1989 ECF, starting at the 9 minute mark of the 4th quarter - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. The 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately - here's all 10 double-teams shown in gifs:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpos...

Here's a video of MJ against Atlanta - he's double-teamed 12 of 13 possessions from the 6:40 mark to the 8:40 mark - the consecutive double-teams are shown in rapid succession:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV...

The youtube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" did a video of Payton guarding MJ in Game 4 of 1996 Finals (link here) - MJ was doubled exactly 10 of the 20 times he caught the ball with Payton guarding - all 10 double-teams are shown if gifs here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpos...

Here's the New York Times on Jordan, 1987:

"Last season, Jordan had to overcome the harrassment of zone traps and double-triple teaming to average 37.1 points a game."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s9_GKFN...

A couple things..

Utah held the 98' Bulls to a 104 ORTG in the Finals, which was the lowest of any Finals with Jordan, and also nearly 10 points below the Bulls' regular season level.. The Jazz could play great defense when needed, similar many title teams that lacked good regular season metrics.. The Jazz also controlled games and opponents by having the better brand of ball - they were always applying more pressure than they faced, so opponents were getting worn down quicker and losing capacity to perform their best offensively.

Secondly, Hornacek was never going to score much in a series against MJ because all his energy gets spent on defense, thereby leaving nothing for offense.. Opposing guards nearly always shot poorly and underperformed against MJ, such as Dumars, Isiah, Price, Porter, Drexler, Magic, Scott, Starks, Hornacek, Stockton, Payton, Hawkins - basically everyone... Jordan also required constant double-teaming (previous post), which wears down defenders and craters the opponent's rebounding, as Jeff Van Gundy explains here.

RIP Frank Layden

Stockton was the best player in the series:

Gamescore in 88' WCSF

Stockton'.... 24.5
Malone'...... 19.4
Magic'......... 17.1
Scot't.......... 14.8
Worthy....... 14.6


Stats

Stockton.... 19 ppg... 16 apg... 4.0 spg
Magic......... 18 ppg... 10 apg... 1.0 spg

* Isiah averaged 19.7 ppg and 9 apg with 2.9 spg against the Lakers in the Finals.

Again, Stockton/Malone was like having Isiah/Duncan... And you're right, they had great teammates like Bailey, Eaton and more.

And it wasn’t ever quite enough.

I’ve talked with Thurl Bailey (incredible person) about that series—I asked him if I could first.

Told him I’ve never gotten over it—“Neither have I.”

Michael Cooper’s late 3 in Game 5—“And that was the only shot he made in that game.”

This was over 25 years later. Pro athletes are different than us.

“Me & Karl have talked about it. We just weren’t good enough.” — John Stockton

Yup... Isiah/Duncan < Magic/Kareem

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Jordan's shot attempts, usage and scoring rate increased in the triangle as shown below:

Regular Season

85-89' Jordan........ 41.5 pts per 100.... 29.5 FGA per 100..... 33.8 usage
90-93' Jordan........ 42.0 pts per 100.... 31.1 FGA per 100..... 33.2 usage


Playoffs

85-89' Jordan........ 42.9 pts per 100.... 29.7 FGA per 100..... 35.1 usage
90-93' Jordan........ 44.4 pts per 100.... 33.4 FGA per 100..... 36.1 usage


Finals

91-93' Jordan........ 36.3 PPG...... 35.9 usage

The Pistons were 22-1 in the 89' and 90' Playoffs against other teams, but only 8-5 against the Bulls.. So Jordan had already developed the Bulls to the 2nd or 3rd-best team in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs despite Pippen being bad and Phil yet to arrive.. Phil inherited a team on the cusp of the Finals and the steepest trajectory in the league.

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2007 Cavs......................... #4 defense
2009 Cavs......................... #3 defense
2010 Cavs......................... #7 defense

1st three-peat Bulls'........ #7 defense

^^^ Lebron wasn't all-defense until 2009, so the 07' Cavs had better defense than the 1st three-peat Bulls due to a great defensive cast.. This includes an all-defensive backcourt (Snow, Hughes), Ben Wallace, bevies of good rebounders, and Zydrunas getting 2 blocks per game.

Accordingly, history shows that the 2006-2010 Cavs had better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls, while also having more and better scoring options.. This includes 4 guys that could average 15 outside the system, aka better scorers than Pippen (Hughes, Zydrunas, Mo, Jamison).. Jamison was a rare 20k scorer that outscored Lebron in the 07' 1st Round, so the Cavs had a better scorer than Pippen at 3rd option, while also having better defenses... And they still had all-star spacers or centers that Jordan never had (Mo, Zydrunas).

Lebron only won 45 games in Year 5 (2008) and then got locked up in the playoffs with 26 on 35% and 5 TO's per game.. Then he received the all-star spacer in 2009 to open his game up and turn the team around... Then he added another 2x all-star in 2010 that was a better scorer than Pippen..

Lebron is simply a loser for quitting on his team and therefore failing expectation.. When he entered the league, no one thought he would quit after Year 7 and team up with opponents thereafter, so he failed expectation at every point in his career.. There was a 1-star, organic chip up for grabs in 2011 that Dirk grabbed, but Lebron's Cavs would've had the defense and long-standing chemistry to easily beat the Mavs.

Bron wanted to go to college somewhere warm.

And yet u keep spamming regular season stats to denigrate or praise players and teams all the time ….

But I’m glad you said so, we can finally put to rest the nonsense of Larry Hughes equivalent of better then Pippen .

So mj want that much important to the team and want the huge reason why bull was so great ?
I mean if a bad team can be lead by a non franchise players to a 7 game CF and win 55 win games .

The league during my stance in the 90s was awfully weak ….and mj didn’t grief much more to the table .
Mj overrated …

U don’t seem to understand you can’t face it both ways ….sone players or teams are terrible and great depending which talking point your on !
My bad I forgot , FG the prince of double standard and meaning …

Jfc , 1 or 4 games span do not represent any kind of history whatsoever you ….

That isn’t the point at all !
Now u backing off that 1 or 2 game peak doesn’t mean anything now !!????

Ha yes now we cannnot generalize your stupid taking point because it goes against a player you like .

Impossible to have any decent talk with someone saying 2 = 2 but sometime it’s 3 and other times it’s fish …