GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

Doesn’t matter .
Pippen was always reliable on what he was able to do while those players u speak of were only able to do it like a 4 game spans streak or at most 1 year play offs….

It’s a joke really what u still try to promote .

I just don't think that there's any circumstance that Curry/Shaq duo wouldn't win 3 out of 8. Put any (non-center) top 20 player with Shaq and they win at least 3.

And saying Kobe is "near perfect copy of mj" is pretty funny. How many chips do you think Jordan/Shaq duo win in 8 years?

The rankings had Pippen 1 spot behind Isiah.. I mean.. I'm speechless.. This fraud has been SO effective that a Derrick Jones-level player is now considered the same as a Curry-level player.

Pippen was also over Ewing and Drexler - no one thought this in the 90's, and it would've been considered absurd... Pippen is over someone like Dwight, who is superior on both sides of the ball - he carried an injured team over a 66-win league favorite to make the Finals...

I mean, I think Kobe is slightly better than Derrick Jones.

I think you may not be remembering the 90s correctly. Your brain is warping what actually happened. Your "MJ is great and everything that can make him greater must be true" mindset is making you think things that just aren't true and is getting worse as time goes on.

Anyway, Pippen had as many top 5 finishes in the MVP as Drexler, 2 more all nba first teams, same all nba second teams and 8 more all nba 1st defensive teams.

Ewing has Pippen covered in top 5 MVPs (5 vs 2), but Pippen has Ewing covered in All NBA 1st teams (by 2) and All NBA first defensive 1st teams by 8.

It was close.

It's a massive lie to say that Pippen was anywhere near Isiah, Ewing or Drexler - no one thought that in the 90's..

And MVP voting isn't a ranking of players - it's based on surprise factor and politics - MJ was completely carrying the team statistically, so Pippen was blindly voted for because the Bulls were the goat dynasty and hottest thing in basketball history.. Pippen and Jordan were voted for TOGETHER by the media - it was automatic to vote for both guys, even though one guy was carrying the other with the biggest statistical gap ever between 1st and 2nd option.

Also, most fans were unaware that All-NBA awards were given out in the 80's or 90's - they were ceremonial awards just for the media to discuss amongst themselves.. Only in recent years did the fans get involved in discussing media awards.

Furthermore, everyone knows who the best players in the 90's are because it's the guys that carried teams to the Finals - MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Drexler... Pippen is nowhere near this level and is worse than Shawn Marion - a purely supplementary player.

Pippen was often joked about in the 90's by fans, aka "pippen is big trash", etc... The stats show that he was carried in every series and never dominated - it was easy to forget that he was in the game - he would completely disappear for large stretches of games.. At this point, you had to be there, since the media is completely fraudulent nowadays - the misreporting of Pippen, Jordan and the fake goat debate lets me know that MOST THINGS in history have been misreported - who knows how many things throughout history actually happened a completely different way than what we see in history books.. It's crazy.

Penny, Wade and Lebron won the minimum with Shaq, while Kobe won the maximum

You guys love misstating things

Pippen averaged 15.7 on 34% in the 96' Finals, so he was not reliable.

He averaged 15.7 again in the 98' Finals and 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs... He was destroyed by Dominique in 93' and X-Man in 92', and Aguirre in 90'.

There was an average margin of 15 PPG between Jordan and Pippen in every series.. So the only thing that Pippen was reliable for was to get carried 6 straight times.. He also disappeared in clutch-time with the worst 4th quarter stats and production ever for a notable player.

At this point, you're just saying things that you think sound good, but the facts prove it false

2009 Mo............. 17.8 ppg...... #3 team defense
1991 Pippen....... 17.8 ppg..... #7 team defense

Jordan won with what Lebron couldn't .. And Dirk won with Jason Terry, so why can't Lebron win with Mo??

And I don't want to hear about Mo averaging 18 on 38% against the Magic because Jordan always won with that from Pippen - it was standard for Jordan to carry weak help over top 5 SRS teams, while Lebron never has.

Lebron is too ball-dominant at high scoring levels to beat top teams with scoring... His inability to carry the "star" category of scoring load requires more star help, which prevents GM's from getting defensive help.. So Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load prevents elite roster construction, while his ball-dominant skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter further hampers growth and roster construction.

Penny, Wade and Lebron won the minimum with Shaq, while Kobe won the maximum...

Kobe turned a perennial sweep loss artist into a goat winner - if Shaq didn't have someone to copy MJ's role, then he can't win in the triangle.

You guys love misstating things

Both Curry and Kobe are above Lebron because they need less help to win.

Specifically, they produce sufficient chemistry to win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player, while Lebron's weaker chemistry requires more talent, such as franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option (big 3's).. He needs big 3's to win as 1st option, so he's inferior.

And it's easy to see why Lebron can't produce sufficient chemistry to win with normal rosters... His skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter, which prevents young player development, chemistry and elite roster construction... Otoh, guys like Curry, Kobe and MJ have expert jumpshooting skill and ability to score off-screens, which allows more sophisticated strategy and chemistry, thereby needing less to win.

Except for everyone that followed the NBA as a career and voted on stuff.

Penny had Shaq when he was aged 21 to 23.
Kobe had Shaq from ages 24-31
Wade had Shaq from ages 32-35
LeBron had Shaq at age 37.

Gee, I wonder why Kobe was most successful?

If you put rookie LeBron, or rookie Wade in Kobe's spot, they win minimum 3 chips. They likely win more because they don't run Shaq out of town too.

I'll give you Penny though. Mainly because of injuries.

Meh that’s pure conjecture.
Kobe start winning championship at an age dwade and curry weren’t even in the nba or was their first year, kobe already nba2 and def1 shrug .

Kinda of bs to expect Kobe to be Kobe at 18 and being equivalent to players of 22-23 years old + ….sustaining a narrative , hey only 3 rings played in 8 years .

And yet u believe Russell, Kareem etc don’t matter they had massive help …

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ALL-NBA SELECTIONS THAT HAD LOSING TEAMS (40 WINS OR LESS), SINCE 1980 (2nd options bolded):

1981 Dantley - 28 wins
1983 Isiah - 37 wins
1985 Jordan - 37 wins
1986 Robertson - 35 wins
1987 Lever - 37 wins
1990 Mullin - 37 wins
1991 King - 30 wins
1992 Willis - 34 wins
1993 Hardaway - 34 wins
1994 Richmond - 27 wins
1998 Richmond - 28 wins
1995 Richmond - 39 wins
1996 Richmond - 39 wins
1997 Richmond - 34 wins
2000 Marbury - 31 wins
2004 McGrady - 21 wins
2004 Lebron - 35 wins
2015 Cousins - 29 wins
2016 Cousins - 33 wins
2017 AD - 34 wins
2019 Kemba - 39 wins
2020 Lillard - 35 wins
2023 Luka - 38 wins

CONCLUSION: 2nd options need winning teams to make All-NBA, with only 3 exceptions in 45 years..

2nd options need winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA because their performance isn't enough on it's own.. Otoh, 1st options routinely make All-NBA with losing teams because they dominate... Essentially, All-NBA is reserved for 1st options and their dominance, unless a secondary option has sufficient winning spotlight.

Finally, if we run the numbers for 40-50 win teams, there are only a half dozen examples of 2nd options getting All-NBA with these records - 2nd options usually need much greater winning spotlight... Infact, Klay and Pippen needed 67-win teams to make their first All-NBA - the subsequent titles gave them the permanent "winner" status that Parker, Ginobili and Pau enjoyed to get their All-NBA selections as well.. The idea is to trick the dumb media by landing alongside a goat 1st option that can carry you to titles - the historical and statistical record shows that this is what these winning 2nd options did to make All-NBA.. TLDR: Pippen never played above a Shawn Marion or Iguodala caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade (many All-NBA).

You're forgetting that the media doesn't vote 2nd options to All-NBA if they have losing teams (under 40 wins), and there's only a handful of 2nd options that were voted All-NBA with 41-50 wins... Klay and Pippen both needed 67 wins to make their first All-NBA...

2nd options need winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA because their performance isn't enough on its own.. Otoh, 1st options routinely make All-NBA with losing teams because they dominate... Essentially, All-NBA is reserved for 1st options and their dominance, unless a secondary option has sufficient winning spotlight and/or a winning team.

So don't put your faith in media accolade - it's just the group-think of a few dozen journalism majors.

In Pippen's case (and the case of many winning sidekicks), he barely scraped 20 ppg as a peak capability and never played above Shawn Marion or Iguodala level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.. If he was losing on the Wizards, he would be like Horace Grant's brother Harvey, aka no one would know who he was..

Why would a 16/5 system player with the worst efficiency and clutch ever (just a dunker/defender) be considered a top 30 player?.. It's just the ring count, winning spotlight and subsequent media accolade - plus 15 years of propaganda from Klutch.

Have you thought you are just wrong?

1st options make All-NBA with far weaker records than 2nd options... 2nd options need winning records to get All-NBA, and usually good winning records, so the "winning spotlight" is a real thing.

Winning spotlight can be a lot of things, such as a team taking the league by storm, which allowed Mo to make all-star in 2009, or Wiggins in 2022, or Klay in 2015... Mo doesn't make jack sh*t if he's losing on the Bucks, or barely winning 40 games like the 08' Cavs... Similarly, Klay's "worse than Jeff Hornacek" stats wouldn't make a single all-star game without the winning spotlight, or Wiggins in 2022 is another great example of winning spotlight inflation.

History shows that 2nd options generally don't dominate, so they need winning spotlight and winning teams to be seen as All-NBA, while 1st options routinely make All-NBA with losing teams because they dominate... Essentially, All-NBA is reserved for 1st options and their dominance, unless a secondary option has sufficient winning spotlight..

So stop being in denial - the media is simply tricked by 2nd options with winning spotlight.. If you want to find an overrated player, look no further than a career 2nd option that won titles (Klay, Pippen, etc).

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Recent thread cliffs

Using media awards to gauge a player's caliber is the same thing as referencing the opinion of Rachel Nichols and Skip Bayless, aka meaningless argument.

Otoh, the only thing that determines someone's caliber is their quality of PERFORMANCE, and Pippen never played above a Shawn Marion, Iguodala, or Nance level - that's his player type and caliber (dunker/defender)... Until someone finds me a series where he played above a Shawn Marion level, I will always **** on Pippen... No one benefitted from winning spotlight more than him, aka the most overrated player ever.

About what, and how?

About Pippen?.. It's historical and statistical record that Pippen never played above a Shawn Marion, Paul George, Larry Nance, or Iguodala caliber - that's his player type and caliber.. He's actually closer to Marion/Nance/Iguodala than George because George was often a dominant scorer.

So again, what am I wrong about, and how?... Otherwise, I'm not wrong, and you're just in denial.. You fell for a fraud that was gifted Finals appearances, and then lost more than anyone ever has on that level... So his career is a complete sham.

Ultimately, I'm glad that I'm smart enough to see through the media propaganda and sophistry that defrauded fans into thinking Lebron is #2 all-time - he's nowhere near.. History shows that he's a simpleton, "down-hill", ball-dominator that can't score off-screens and turns everyone into spot-up shooter, thereby preventing young player development, chemistry, elite roster construction, or great teams.. This is the historical and statistical record, so there's nothing to be wrong about - I'm just informing of the facts.

Yeah your a genius , deciphering many conspiracy theories like pippen .
Congrats .

It's more like fraud than conspiracy theory.. In this case, we know that Pippen never played above a Larry Nance level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to media accolade, while Lebron is a simpleton, "down-hill", ball-dominator - he can't score off-screens and turns everyone into spot-up shooter, thereby preventing young player development, chemistry, elite roster construction, or great teams.. This is the historical and statistical record.. Ultimately, Lebron was gifted Finals appearances, and then lost more than anyone ever has on that level... So his career is a complete sham.

Nah it’s a conspiracy theory .
Believing such a fraud on a such a scale for so long .
And since you can’t even read and decipher stats properly, no point in discussing any nonsense u post about stats .

Ps: u admit LeBron is the goat because using such a « bad brand of basketball » and wining so much is just incredible .
Imagine if he would of just used a good brand of basketball …..

LeBron basically used a Mazda and beat Ferraris nonstop for years .
Props to LeBron .