The Impending Death of Modern Capitalism
Let's make sure we're all on the same page on the definition of capitalism.
It's basically a system in which private owne
If I have to make a decision on it today all I have is all I have. And where I'm at is incentivize double bottom line with electricity replacing fossil fuels. I don't think things would be much different -except for the lack of gas stations and coal plants - had we gone with electricity instead fossil fuels back in the day. So given what I know now, if I could change that cours
It is today. Making decisions for anything like 100 years time would be about the same as people in 1600 making decisons for 2025. Today - right now - that is a silly mistake.
Focus on the next 20-30 or so - today that is correct.
The future is not the problem. Massive suffering getting there is a today problem. The possibility of not getting there at all is a today problem
From my perspective, survival is the only thing that matters.
I think you lack self awareness to say this.
Truth, beauty, art, connection, love, justice. None of that matters?
What is the value in surviving if nothing else matters?
Quality of life doesn’t matter? You don’t ever judge your quality of life?
It is today. Making decisions for anything like 100 years time would be about the same as people in 1600 making decisons for 2025. Today - right now - that is a silly mistake.
You don't seem to acknowledge the concept of legacy. That concept involves an appreciation of the consequences of our generation's behavior upon the life experience of future generations.
There are some Earth phenomena which are similar in respect to a one way valve such as those which deliver blood to our bodies. Once the blood passes the valve opening, there is no physiological way for the blood to go backward. It can only go forward.
If our generation's actions pass tipping points such as the stoppage of the overturning ocean circulation, the generation which inherits that condition may not be able to turn it back on. That switch flipping may mean the deaths of billions within a decade. It would almost certainly bankrupt the US government and many others and thrust the world into a global exercise of martial law.
If you pay attention to the moves that the Trump Administration is making and the SCOTUS is greenlighting .... martial law is being slowly implemented. They are stress testing the transition from a free society to an authoritarian society. Project 2025 is a blueprint for an authoritarian governance.
our generations actions causing tipping points is definitely a today problem. it is not a 100 years time problem.
trump is definitely a today problem not a 100 years time problem
etc
Focusing on getting it right for the next 20-30 years or so is all we can usefully do. And we dont even seem able to manage that.
I dont think a discussion on complex dynamics is going to be helpful.
It is today. Making decisions for anything like 100 years time would be about the same as people in 1600 making decisons for 2025. Today - right now - that is a silly mistake.
Focus on the next 20-30 or so - today that is correct.
The future is not the problem. Massive suffering getting there is a today problem. The possibility of not getting there at all is a today problem
I'm not really thinking 100 years out in that sense. More along the lines of: I haven't been eating well, I know that has long-term negative consequences for me and so I'm going to change my diet today.
There is no possibility of compromising with the hostility of reality (death). This idea that we will find a Goldilocks zone of sustainability is surrendering to defeat.Growth is the only way forward. Life no longer is going to fall for the illusion of bargaining with death. Anyone who refuses this under the guise of being realistic and practical will find themselves cut off fr
I already told you I don't believe matter is real. That's my worldview. So none what you're arguing applies to me.
I already told you I don't believe matter is real. That's my worldview. So none what you're arguing applies to me.
There is a major difference between believing matter is not ultimately real and matter has no reality.
I really doubt you believe matter has no reality. I really doubt you’d nonchalantly drive into oncoming traffic.
Just because duality is not ultimately real that doesn’t mean it’s not imposed on us no matter what we believe.
We're really wandering off into the metaphysical weeds here.
This is the Politics & Society section of Two Plus Two. There are separate sections for Religion & Philosophy.
Survival is the basic objective of all life.
For social animals like humans, there is a competitive survival advantage associated with belonging to a larger group. So nature rewards tribalism.
In order to keep a larger group functioning / surviving as a cohesive whole, there must be order. So societies create belief systems and laws as an organizing principle. Most people go along because they are submissive. Nature rewards submissiveness. Just do what the head honcho of your tribe demands and your survival is in good shape. Publicly questioning the policies of the powerful is the quickest path to a short life ... so we don't see very much of that.
Capitalism was an extremely effective belief system for a very long interval of time. Human lifespans have doubled in recent centuries and the human population has exploded. Increasing more than 10x in the last 300 years. The point of this thread is not a wholesale critique of capitalism.
The problem with modern capitalism, as practiced in the USA in 2025, is that its principles are no longer congruent with the survival of our species. Modern capitalism is coupled with an extreme and malignant form of libertarianism.
We have laws and order relating to visible human waste. We can't dump our garbage in the street or on a neighbor's yard. You can go to jail for that.
But the liberty with respect to unlimited amounts of invisible waste such as GHG's, microplastics, PFAS, heavy metal fragments, etc ........that's the aspect of modern capitalism which is going to destroy itself.
There is a peculiar aspect of the human ego / psyche which seeks to see ourselves as God's which lord over nature. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are part of and subordinate to nature. Nature creates order which humans must submit to or die.
The problem we have at an individual level today is that society does not provide us alternative means to survive. We have to participate in the capitalist apparatus in order to have money to purchase food.
Digging into the essence of this problem ..... there is a very simple conflict of interest between personal survival today and collective survival in the intermediate future. That means we are going to drive this wreck to the point where it breaks down. Then there will be a chaotic filtering event. Maybe people emerge from that. Maybe not. The future is a mystery.
The only thing which is certain is that the status quo will self destruct. Change is the only constant.
We're really wandering off into the metaphysical weeds here.
This is the Politics & Society section of Two Plus Two. There are separate sections for Religion & Philosophy.
I don't see anything wrong with having a thread on it since religion or spirituality is such an integral part of society. It's more that I don't want to see it interjected into every other thread. Mainly because it doesn't move the conversations or debates that are actually taking place forward. That it's God's will, our fault for sinning, etc. that all this bad stuff is going on in society isn't immediately obvious. I mean it's one thing to cite Muslim beliefs for explanatory purposes in the ME; another to start preaching from their holy books.
Survival is the basic objective of all life. For social animals like humans, there is a competitive survival advantage associated with belonging to a larger group. So nature rewards tribalism. In order to keep a larger group functioning / surviving as a cohesive whole, there must be order. So societies create belief systems and laws as an organizing principle. Most people go al
Go work for a ****ing co op (or create one) if you think that's make such a big difference
We have to participate in the capitalist apparatus in order to have money to purchase food.
Changing the system won't change that:
The socialist principle, "He who does not work shall not eat", is already realized; the other socialist principle, "An equal amount of products for an equal amount of labor", is also already realized. But this is not yet communism, and it does not yet abolish "bourgeois law", which gives unequal individuals, in return for unequal (really unequal) amounts of labor, equal amounts of products. This is a "defect" according to Marx, but it is unavoidable in the first phase of communism; for if we are not to indulge in utopianism, we must not think that having overthrown capitalism people will at once learn to work for society without any rules of law.
--Vladimir Lenin
In the USSR work is a duty and a matter of honor for every able-bodied citizen, in accordance with the principle: "He who does not work, neither shall he eat".
--Russian Constitution of 1918
That goes back to antiquity in every system known to man. The grass isn't any greener with socialism because every economic system is fundamentally the same. Whatever one system can do the other can do too. But at the end of the day, none of them are perfect either in theory or practice. Yet it's almost like some people are almost rooting on the collapse of the system to prove their point. On the other hand, there are people who see the same flaws and problems and start or participate in charities to at least make up for those systemic issues and make life a little better for some people.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/climat...
I posted the following article in the climate change thread but am copying it here as well.
This is a surreal development. We've actually added so much heat to the Earth that we've managed to reverse critical ocean circulation for the first time in recorded history.
We're creating a completely different version of Planet Earth than the one we evolved in.
The reason why America will always resist full blown socialism is because the spirit of greatness has been the animating spirit of this country from the beginning. The USA was always meant to fulfill its destiny as the city upon the hill for the rest of the world to emulate.
Are we living up to that promise? Not even close, but it is still our identity.
Because of this, America will have a stronger stomach for inequality than other countries. Why? Because true equality can only be attained on the other side of greatness.
Whoever wants to live in a good society can move to Canada or someplace similar. Again, true lasting goodness is on the other side of greatness. Many countries of Canada's type derive their goodness from America’s greatness.
The ones who lead the way to greatness are those with chips on their shoulder. This is why our great athletes and achievers are always looking for fault in themselves, so they can retain that lowly position necessary for the pursuit of greatness.
Still, we understand the value of preserving hope. We provide a social safety net to protect against demoralization. NOT to pursue a false version of equality.
Further, greatness does not relinquish its mission in response to potential survival threats in the future, since the fullness of survival is on the other side of greatness.
The reason why America will always resist full blown socialism is because the spirit of greatness has been the animating spirit of this country from the beginning. The USA was always meant to fulfill its destiny as the city upon the hill for the rest of the world to emulate.Are we living up to that promise? Not even close, but it is still our identity.Because of this, America w
You sound like a religious fanatic. Like this freak who led his followers to a mass suicide.
Get used to it.
Capitalism as we know it SHOULD die.
It's all been one, big, long con.
They made healthcare a commodity, education a debt trap, and housing a speculation market -- then told us poverty is a personal failing.
They privatized survival and called it freedom.
Americans have been duped. Every other advanced Western nation has universal health care, paid family leave, paid maternity leave, at least 6 weeks paid vacations, living wages, and a commitment to Green energy.
THAT'S how you make America great.
Not by giving tax breaks to billionaires.
Capitalism as we know it SHOULD die.It's all been one, big, long con. They made healthcare a commodity, education a debt trap, and housing a speculation market -- then told us poverty is a personal failing. They privatized survival and called it freedom.Americans have been duped. Every other advanced Western nation has universal health care, paid family leave, paid maternity le
Amen brother.
An article about the excessive consumption of water in new data centers.
Stepping back, a theme that seems to be emerging -> it’s getting much more difficult for young people to have a sense of meaningful progress in their life. People need to at least have hope for meeting this need. Low level survival isn’t enough.
Outside of religion, work life (upward mobility) and dating / family life have traditionally delivered meaningful progress to people, but both are presenting new challenges.
Regarding this issue, many people ask themselves, “How can we restructure society so more people can access this need?”
My response would be that the problem is much more serious. Society was never going to be able to satisfy this need at scale indefinitely, and we seem to have already reached that point.
As a result, my appetite for any extreme political changes has lessened to zero — not because I don’t feel for the younger people struggling, but because re-education must come first. The status quo which they were socialized into should not be viewed as reliable for the vast majority any longer. Reality is the ultimate re-educator, but it is the duty of previous generations to stop giving false hope in the status quo.
Even if finding a decent job and starting a family is still enough moving forward for many people, the effort needed to secure these things over the long term is increasing. Young people are going to need to learn how to be more resilient and more resourceful than their parents.
Unlike Nut Nut, I see this as a transition phase into something much greater rather than a new normal of economic austerity. The key is not to try to defy reality (although this is initially necessary), but rather to go deeper into reality by allowing it to defeat you and transform you into what can ultimately overcome it.
In order for this to occur, humanity must deny itself the temptations of political extremism. These half measures are like the sweet songs of the Sirens of old.
For Gen Z and younger, faith will no longer be optional but mandatory if they don’t want to risk being swallowed up in the wreckage.
Unlike Nut Nut, I see this as a transition phase into something much greater rather than a new normal of economic austerity.
Feel free to elaborate.
If we somehow manage to survive, I certainly see a "greater" sense of humility. An enhanced appreciation for what the Earth provides us and human compatibility with different versions of that Earth.
I'm curious how as to how you define greatness.
I'm a skeptic. I don't see the precedent for societies with such destructive power as nukes to unwind peacefully in a world with fanatics who believe that destruction of Earth's carrying capacity for humans is the pathway to some hypothetical shangri-la called heaven.
The skeptic only sees reality through the eyes of skepticism.
The skeptic has usually delved more deeply into reality than the average person, so he has the potential to add value in that way.
Still, skepticism itself is anti progress. The reason why the skeptic clings to his skepticism is because after the skeptic comes the servant. And much more is demanded of the servant than the skeptic.
The honest skeptic would be more skeptical of his own skepticism.
