Is Mizrachi now in the GOAT convo?
Let's be honest, players like Doyle, Stu Unger, Chan, Phil etc won their bracelets when poker was a lot easier/way less
fair but he also didn't play wsop for a while and it's also not like he was out grinding wsop even when he's there. not much value is wsop events when you're playing nosebleeds.
Im taking the OP as talking about wsop only even though he didnt specify. Whats the point of debating cash games with goat status if 99% of those are behind closed doors?
Dwan was better then Ivey at live and online holdem anyway. Ivey also had Greenstein hand hold him through the start of his career. Who gave Dwan help?
You can be great but still the most overrated player ever.
You should have a strong history in both cash and tournaments, and across variants, to be considered the poker goat since they are all parts of poker. To me, Doyle is the goat based on this with Ivey also in the conversation.
If you add online results as a condition, it becomes Ivey but in fairness, Doyle was already in his 70s when online became big and had already crushed for 50 years before it did. And, he continued to hold court in high stakes live mixed games even against the onslaught of players who arrived in Vegas from online up until, I believe, his death.
All this said, Mizrachi has made a case for tournament goat.
GOAT Sunrunner for sure. No one can top Doyle for GOAT. Dominating poker for decades, and still held his own in big cash games well into the internet poker era when he was also at an age where most people would be lucky to still play checkers with their grandchildren.
Ivey also a clear tier far above some MTT sunrunner.
I literally laughed out loud as well. Many of the Triton high roller events have fucking ridiculous line ups, likes of which make SCOOP 25k tourney fields with Lenas and C-Darwins on Pokerstars look like fish fries. And I mean with the players on those who are not Lenas or C-Darwins.
Yeah, definitely Ivey and Brunson. Spectacular results by M.Mizrachi, but nowhere near GOAT.
I guess were judging goats by their 6th place finishes now and not championships. All those players with more NBA playoff game wins over Jordan are clearly better than him.
1) Not the most wsop nor wpt wins
2) Nowhere near the most triton wins even though no one cares about triton
3) No PPC wins which is considered the highest skilled tourney on the planet
OP never mentioned cash games which are impossible to verify. Im talking about tournies. Ivey is great but not the goat.
I guess were judging goats by their 6th place finishes now and not championships. All those players with more NBA playoff game wins over Jordan are clearly better than him.1) Not the most wsop nor wpt wins2) Nowhere near the most triton wins even though no one cares about triton3) No PPC wins which is considered the highest skilled tourney on the planetOP never mentioned cash g
Poker is not basketball where the goal is always to just win the championship.
In poker the goal is to make money. A GTO bot playing an ICM-adjusted strategy will over time make more money than a GTO bot playing a chip EV strategy.
The ICM bot is "better," (makes more money) but the Chip EV bot will win 1st place more.
All that's to say that most wins is not the only measure that counts in poker tournaments.
Ivey has the second most bracelets all time, and from what I hear he spends most of his time crushing nosebleed live games in Macau. No one knows how much he's actually won.
I brought up Stu Ungar as someone that had the reputation for dominating the most when he was at his best.
But Ivey has dominated when he was at his best, and he's got bracelets, and he's performed in WPT, and he crushes cash games, and he's stood the test of time...
I would call him the all-around GOAT, at least of the post poker boom era.
It's impossible to compare players from different eras who never even competed, but I guess you're arguing Mizrachi is better than Ivey? Just from eye test and watching them both play Ivey seems much better, and he has been way more consistent. No disrespect intended towards Mizrachi but this is Phil Ivey we're talking about.
Ivey has a case as a technical player and G-man gives it up to him as the GOAT for good reason not just legacy but live technical play qualities.
This river fold at 15:45 for basically a min click size with plenty of chips behind and no real icm considerations is pretty impressive versus Daniel Devoras exploitively. K10 versus KQ on AKKxx board. He also does a great job turning Tony G into a tellbox with just his table aura.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-FGxRxAH0Q...
The honest correct answer is Elton Tsang.
Or perhaps Tan Xuan for fear from other pros, but that fear is mostly his huge bankroll that he ends up punting and doubling someone up stupidly with every session from boredom and trying to own everyone rather than win max cash.
Elton Tsang has every gear and great reads and doesn’t punt. He is the best technical player imo. Harder to read him than Linus or anyone if you watch Triton hands and he is capable of anything while keeping a tight not overdoing it image. He organizes the biggest fish games as a subsidiary skill.
Esfandiari and Doyle also top tier talents and long term.
I feel like we need to see ROI for the goats. Most of these players that have the most cashes simply play more tournaments than anyone else!
I'm trying to figure out how Mizrachi is so special. Is there something specific plays that he made that were really impressive? I haven't seen it yet.
Doyle’s three biggest cashes, two wins and a third, were all over age 70. Winning the 2005 $5K NLHE6 (301 entrants; 2-4th Minh Ly, Scotty, Layne) at age 71 is extremely impressive. Crushed the biggest cash games for fifty years in all variants, was competitive well into his 80s. Was certainly the GOAT tournament player for a long stretch, would easily have 20+ bracelets had he wanted to. Won his first one at age 41.
Impossible to compare eras, but he was the best of several.
Like I don't think I saw a big mistake from him in 10 years of poker. Everyone else, Phil H, Daniel,
and pretty much everyone else had big mistakes. But I can't recall 1 from Phil Ivey. Not to mention
zero mistakes .
Did you not watch the 2009 Main Event coverage? All factors considered Ivey made the worst mistake in the history of tournament poker. He’s obviously top five OAT, and nobody’s perfect, but still.
I feel like we need to see ROI for the goats. Most of these players that have the most cashes simply play more tournaments than anyone else!
I'm trying to figure out how Mizrachi is so special. Is there something specific plays that he made that were really impressive? I haven't seen it yet.
We def need a batting average. Mizrachi is special because he won the PPC 4 times.
Did you not watch the 2009 Main Event coverage All factors considered Ivey made the worst mistake in the history of tournament poker. He's obviously top five OAT, and nobody's perfect, but still.
Lotta ppl conditioned to be an ivey ass kisser. Biggest stage of his life and he does nothing + fumbles the ball. Hes won zero NLHE bracelets, Dwan was better then him at NLHE cash live and online. He was never #1 at the most popular game, how is he considered the best?
Ultimately ask yourself this question: if the Grinder walks into Bobby's room, do the guys in there go "oh crap" or "we got a seat for you right here my friend"? If it's the latter (and I think it is, or at least on the scale between those two it leans much closer to that side), you can't be the GOAT.
Ultimately ask yourself this question: if the Grinder walks into Bobby's room, do the guys in there go "oh crap" or "we got a seat for you right here my friend"? If it's the latter (and I think it is, or at least on the scale between those two it leans much closer to that side), you can't be the GOAT.
Im sure hes nowhere close to the best at anything in cash games just like ivey isnt the best at tournies. According to the internet David Oppenheim doesnt exist but I am sure he just got destroyed by ivey 24/7 in mixed game cash. Love that poker after dark where david bent ivey over for an entire week to the point where phil was crying about quitting poker. Those episodes sure got scrubbed from the history books fast. 😃
1) I dont care about Triton since a lot of players arent willing to go all the way over there. The fields are way easier, its like bragging about LIV tour wins vs the PGA
Win a triton high roller and show us how you exploit such a weak field.
Ultimately ask yourself this question: if the Grinder walks into Bobby's room, do the guys in there go "oh crap" or "we got a seat for you right here my friend"? If it's the latter (and I think it is, or at least on the scale between those two it leans much closer to that side), you can't be the GOAT.
He is on Venetian Live right now (recently). No one went oh crap oh . G def playing tighter than table. Okin bluffed him at least once on a G shoulda callled spot.
Ultimately ask yourself this question: if the Grinder walks into Bobby's room, do the guys in there go "oh crap" or "we got a seat for you right here my friend"? If it's the latter (and I think it is, or at least on the scale between those two it leans much closer to that side), you can't be the GOAT.
Who are the regs in Bobby's room? Curious to learn why they are the measure of skill in poker.
1) I dont care about Triton since a lot of players arent willing to go all the way over there. The fields are way easier, its like bragging about LIV tour wins vs the PGA.2) People always forget what goat means. I didnt say he sucked I said hes overrated. Most people think hes #1 or 2 where i think hes #3-5.3) Ivey has zero NLHE bracelets. Last I checked that was the most popul
Everything you say is just opinion presented as fact but genuinely curious when we started considering Triton as soft? The line ups in these Triton events are ridiculous.
I have Grinder as #2 on wsop goat list even before the ME win and thats only because Helmuth has such a giant lead.
Lol and lol
You’re absolutely right: poker has evolved over the years, and in the era when players like Doyle, Stu, and Chan were dominant, there were fewer tournaments and less competition at the top level. Now, the competition is much stronger. That’s why Mizrachi's achievements, especially in this context, are even more impressive. His ability to stay on top across different periods is truly an art of the game.
You're absolutely right: poker has evolved over the years, and in the era when players like Doyle, Stu, and Chan were dominant, there were fewer tournaments and less competition at the top level. Now, the competition is much stronger. That's why Mizrachi's achievements, especially in this context, are even more impressive. His ability to stay on top across different periods is
I have to admit, I'm impressed when Michael gets through these fields, given how tough they are.
Does anyone know what parts of the poker go footage captured early parts of Mizrachi in Main event? I'd like see what he's doing in early stages of the events.
He must have incredible table presence and live play ability to adjust.
Im taking the OP as talking about wsop only even though he didnt specify. Whats the point of debating cash games with goat status if 99% of those are behind closed doors?
Dwan was better then Ivey at live and online holdem anyway. Ivey also had Greenstein hand hold him through the start of his career. Who gave Dwan help?
You can be great but still the most overrated player ever.
if someone wants the conversation about goat wsop player that's one thing. if you want to talk about best nl cash player that's something else.if you want to talk about goat poker player that's a totally different argument. so yea if you're just talking wsop MM has to be up there based on results.
Im taking the OP as talking about wsop only even though he didnt specify. Whats the point of debating cash games with goat status if 99% of those are behind closed doors?Dwan was better then Ivey at live and online holdem anyway. Ivey also had Greenstein hand hold him through the start of his career. Who gave Dwan help?You can be great but still the most overrated player ever.
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Well stated. 4 times Poker Players Championship. Main Event.
It's not just about skill, but endurance and longevity.
Based on results, he's up there now for all time best performances in a year and beyond that.
With the WSOP app all the tables are publicly visible now, so you can see when people are entering and rebuying. It seems like theoretically someone could be scraping that data and compiling ROI stats. That would give some real metrics to compare WSOP performances from 2025 and on into the future. WSOP should definitely have access to these stats, though they may see it as bad for business to make this info public.
Does anyone know if these stats are available anywhere? I've always been curious which players at the top of the hendon mob earnings list are actual crushers, and which are just whales burning money.
