4-bet pot with two yahoos
1/3 NLHE 9 handed
Every hand is getting straddled and double straddles, V1 is the only one not straddling. We're up a bit
i treat suited aces like suited connectors; they are good at stacking AA in 4bet pots. I want to be the one calling the 4bet, not making it.
Pre: Everything suggests you should be going linear here (position, opponents' exploitabilities, their size), and this hand isn't strong enough to raise for pure value unless their 3b range is like 30%+.
Flop and turn are good.
I'd fold river. If they somehow called the flop with a hand that's still unmade on the river and/or managed to turn a worse hand into a bluff, then NH them.
I recognize that this is a great set-up for a 4bet, but when expanding your 4bet range against these types of opponents, you should use a linear range. So you can 4bet for value with a wider range of hands like AQo, AJs/KQs, and TT/99. 4bet with Ace-Wheel suited can be good against a player who is 3betting a wide range and will fold appropriately with hands like AJo that domina
Sorry y'all, didn't realize literally the first post covered all the bases a week ago.
I saw it wasn't limped the first time.Also saw that there was a lot of gambling going on and nobody is folding anything anywhere for any amount.
Everyone is free to read a preflop chart saying A3s is a pure open in HJ for 2-2.5bb and then extrapolate that to say A3s should be opened for 3bb+ when we are always seeing a flop and people are
Obviously you shouldn't over-extrapolate based on the charts, but what the charts DO suggest is that A3s is a top ~12.5% hand in deepstacked (70bb+) poker. If they call with (say) 30% of hands, then we're an outright favorite to win the hand (assuming you remove the top 5% of hands) before accounting for our hand's favorable EQR, the fact that we're uncapped and have a skill advantage. And even then we *still* scoop the blinds 24% of the time without a fight.
I find with most of these instances of arguing that our opponents are too bad to profitably VPIP a hand that gets raised against bots is that it's a really steep climb to actually make the case.
I don't like the 4!, but it isn't just about having the best hand preflop. OP had a read from sizing that the 3-bettor didn't have a premium hand. The 4! represents KK+ or at least JJ+/AK. If you get it HU or get a better flop to bluff at, it will be hard for them to call big bets in absolute terms with your representing a big hand. In this case, you were maybe ahead, and it was difficult to bet biggish because it was multiway with a dripping wet flop.
i think if you want to do this you should 4b much larger to avoid this scenario which seems extremely likely if you make it on the smaller side
just eyeballing it you probably need like ~80%? folds here to jam pre
v1 seems like he's never calling based on description / not straddling and if the read is v2 never has it, its an option. you can giggle maniacally and show a 3 if they fold which has to be worth something. even taking a less absurd size, something like 200, is likely to have signif more fe than 110 and also looks like it needs to work around 3/4 of the time (if u assume they play jam or fold vs it, which they wont)
would legitimately never occur to me to open fold pre or limp
You don't need to get folds preflop. Loose players will call preflop, and then figure you have a big pair or whatever, and they can't call the big flop or turn bet. Plus the hand has some value. If you really had AA/KK, you wouldn't be trying to get folds preflop. A really huge 4! doesn't make sense. You don't make your money at 1/3 taking down pots preflop. People don't want to fold preflop. Not saying 4! is best, but if you 4!, you usually want to play it as if you had a big pair until it isn't worth continuing to bluff.
You don't need to get folds preflop. Loose players will call preflop, and then figure you have a big pair or whatever, and they can't call the big flop or turn bet. Plus the hand has some value. If you really had AA/KK, you wouldn't be trying to get folds preflop. A really huge 4! doesn't make sense. You don't make your money at 1/3 taking down pots preflop. People don't want t
idk i think 4bing small and going 3 ways to the flop at spr 1.5 is not a great outcome here as most of the thread has concluded. also if you give solver the option, there are several solves in gto wizard for 100bb with oop 4b jamming over a 3b so idk man. anyways though when it gets back to op theres ~21bb in the pot and he thinks neither player has a hand they want to stack off with. u can tell urself whatever u want about how to make money at 1/3 but i would go after it, and i think a larger raise actually does that more efficiently
Yeah, going larger might be better here, and just flatting the 3! may be best. Just the point is not to take it down preflop, as that is not going to work well. When you 4! bluff, you need to be willing to put a lot in postflop with the right flop and preferably HU often as a pure bluff.
Grunch:
PRE - if you're going to open, open for a larger size than $10 in a raked 1/3 game. At least make it $15, especially at a splashy loose table where we're playing deep.
Also, don't 4B with A3s. It's fine to take a flop multi-way and try to flush-over-flush someone or make a wheel, or possibly some sneaky two pair. But when you 4B and get called in a loose splashy game, very often you'll be up against dominating aces, and you'll HAVE to make at least 2P+ if you're going to win.
ETA - just now reading past the OP, and seeing the advice some are giving to limp. Ordinarily, I hate open-liming, and won't do it, but I think an argument can be made to do it here, so long as we're also open-limping with a well-rounded range, including some hands we'd limp-3B, and for a large-ish size. While I don't like open-4B'ing with A3s, I think it might be a good candidate to limp-3B as part of an open-limping range.
FLOP - In theory we're supposed to range bet for a small size as the PFR in 4BP's, but I might deviate here and check rather than bet, simply because we were out of line 4B'ing this hand pre, and our loose-passive opponents are likely to show up with a lot of 2P+ here.
Basically, I'd be looking to play pot control / defense here, with just a weak top pair and no draw.
Since you bet, at least you bet small, which is correct, in theory. But here again, I don't like it if our plan is to bet once and then start checking. As soon as we show weakness here, we're opening the door to being blown off our hand.
TURN - Yep. Just check.
RIVER - We don't beat any hand that would be betting for value. The only question is if he's capable of turning a worse value hand into a bluff, or bluffing with some hand that calls the 4B pre, and calls the flop bet, but doesn't have any showdown value.
If he's playing the way you described, that seems unlikely. I'd probably just fold. If we're getting bluffed off a chop, that sucks, but it happens. Just a bad run-out for us to bluff-catch.
