Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
Anyways, another Israeli tech company is being bought for 25 billion USD. While American college kids clamor about divesting from Israel, the rest of the world goes on about business as usual.
You know you're on the right side of history when you're cheering for military subcontractors and against student activists. That's been like a 100% morally correct position since the dawn of time.
The whole "ethnic cleansing" framing is just dumb. There has been like 100 wars/civil wars in ht last 50 years, many ongoing right now, where refugees were created. And in every singe other one, refugees were moved. In fact, even without wars when a society has a large young population with little economic propects for other reasons, people move on. What do you think is goi
Sorry but you haven't answered on what you mean by population reduction? Elaborate on this please. Also if Gazans were forcibly removed then that would be ethnic cleansing. There's no "framing" about it. And the same was said about Israel re conditions and resources and the Israelis still flourished so I'm not sure if I buy your argument in this regard.
Anyone who is silent about the massacre of the Druze in Syria has no moral right to talk about Israel for even a second.
Is my government paying for it?
You know exactly what he means.
Sorry but you haven't answered on what you mean by population reduction? Elaborate on this please. Also if Gazans were forcibly removed then that would be ethnic cleansing. There's no "framing" about it. And the same was said about Israel re conditions and resources and the Israelis still flourished so I'm not sure if I buy your argument in this regard.
This is all just bad faith word games.
The Irish diaspora has like 50 million people, while the island has 5 million. That looks like a lot of ethnic cleansing to me by framing.
Syria has had millions leave in the last couple decades due to civil wars. Again, lots of ethnic cleansing.
If we accept your framing, why is ethnic cleansing ok in literally every other circumstance other than Palestinians living in overcrowded ghettos with zero economic prospects?
This is all just bad faith word games.
The Irish diaspora has like 50 million people, while the island has 5 million. That looks like a lot of ethnic cleansing to me by framing.
It was.
Syria has had millions leave in the last couple decades due to civil wars. Again, lots of ethnic cleansing.
Were they forcibly removed?
If we accept your framing, why is ethnic cleansing ok in literally every other circumstance other than Palestinians living in overcrowded ghettos with zero economic prospects?
Nobody has said ethnic cleansing is okay, except you, when you very strongly implied it just now.
What if they don't wish to leave Gaza? If they're forcibly removed against their will, then that absolutely is ethnic cleansing and again nobody is "framing" this as a positive except again, you.
And you still haven't answered a very plainly put question- what precisely do you mean by population reduction of 25% or approximately 250k people? Stop pussyfooting about and explain it to me like I'm five.
The 2 state solution lives nowhere but in the Western imagination. I dont think Netanyahu was ever worried about a functional 2 state solution. But the idea he helped Hamas to weaken the PLO/PA, who he viewed as a greater danger at the time, is reasonable. And is completely consistent with how Israel and the US have operated in the ME for the last 50 years, for good or bad.A
I mean I don’t think that this is true. There have been many unsuccessful cracks at it. If it purely existed in the Western imagination it seems like this would not be the case. And ultimately we have the power to force these things anyway, so I’m not worried about that. I am worried about legitimizing Hamas, and think that Netanyahu and the far right have leveraged Hamas against PA/PLO. You are very concerned about the IRGC. Has that been to the benefit of the IRGC?
It was. Were they forcibly removed?Nobody has said ethnic cleansing is okay, except you, when you very strongly implied it just now.What if they don't wish to leave Gaza? If they're forcibly removed against their will, then that absolutely is ethnic cleansing and again nobody is "framing" this as a positive except again, you.And you still haven't answered a very plainly put qu
I seriously doubt you would have to “forcibly remove” anyone to reduce the population of Gaza so it is manageable.
Just get rid of UNRWA and treat the Palestinians like every other refugee population.
If someone whose home was destroyed is adamant about keeping their family there to live in a tent for the foreseeable future then knock yourself out.
But at least give people the option. The whole point of UNRWA is so Palestinians don’t even have the options all
Other refugees are given, for purely political reasons.
I mean I don’t think that this is true. There have been many unsuccessful cracks at it. If it purely existed in the Western imagination it seems like this would not be the case. And ultimately we have the power to force these things anyway, so I’m not worried about that. I am worried about legitimizing Hamas, and think that Netanyahu and the far right have leveraged Hamas again
We can agree to disagree. But I think the Israeli left of 30 years ago and western leaders have given a genuine effort at a 2 state solution.
I don’t think any governing body on the Palestinian side or the Israeli right (who has been in power 20 years) seriously even entertains the notion.
They just have been going through the motions to placate western leaders and their people.
I seriously doubt you would have to “forcibly remove” anyone to reduce the population of Gaza so it is manageable. Just get rid of UNRWA and treat the Palestinians like every other refugee population. If someone whose home was destroyed is adamant about keeping their family there to live in a tent for the foreseeable future then knock yourself out. But at least give people
Dunain? Can you please tell me- in plain simple English in unequivocal terms- what you mean by reducing the Palestinian population by 25%?
If you do get rid of UNRWA and make them live in tents and they then have to leave that's forcibly removing them aka ethnic cleansing. So again just spit it out what's on your mind?
By reducing the population, do you mean kill 'em?
Dunain? Can you please tell me- in plain simple English in unequivocal terms- what you mean by reducing the Palestinian population by 25%?
If you do get rid of UNRWA and make them live in tents and they then have to leave that's forcibly removing them aka ethnic cleansing. So again just spit it out what's on your mind?
By reducing the population, do you mean kill 'em?
I used very plain language. My argument is extremely easy to follow
You are playing bad faith word games and I am not interested.
I spend most of my time criticizing Hamas and their supporters, because they are the main crux of the problem as I see it.
That being said, the argument “declaring a Palestinian state rewards Hamas” I admit I cant track.
Hamas doesn’t want a state. It is not like Palestinians are going to hold elections and Hamas will be allowed to run and get elected.
I guess it gives them an out in that they could abdicate and say they achieved something.
But having a Palestinian state has never been their stated goal, and I take their stated words at face value they believe they have a divine mandate to conquer Israel.
And a Palestinian state at peace with Israel certainly doesn’t do anything to work towards this goal.
So I don’t see the argument it is rewarding Hamas.
I spend most of my time criticizing Hamas and their supporters, because they are the main crux of the problem as I see it. That being said, the argument “declaring a Palestinian state rewards Hamas” I admit I cant track. Hamas doesn’t want a state. It is not like Palestinians are going to hold elections and Hamas will be allowed to run and get elected. I g
Super easy for you to simply say "No, I don't mean kill 'em all," just FYI.
lmao
I spend most of my time criticizing Hamas and their supporters, because they are the main crux of the problem as I see it. That being said, the argument “declaring a Palestinian state rewards Hamas” I admit I cant track. Hamas doesn’t want a state. It is not like Palestinians are going to hold elections and Hamas will be allowed to run and get elected. I guess it gives them
Canada's pledge is so dumb its based on free elections and Hamas having no control. Why even make the statement at all
Look at a few things here.
Hamas, the Hannibal directive, October 7.
The biggest issue for the pro Netanyahu people is explaining October 7. As for example there is only a 44 mile stretch between Gaza and Tel Aviv. Again reasonable people would ask how it is at all possible for Hamas to not only enter into Israel, but to stay there for six hours. There is no logical explanation for it. Especially when you have a country like Israel with sophisticated military operational capacity to launch precision strikes 1400 miles away in Iran. Or to carry out highly sophisticated military operations in a place like Lebanon.
To be fair, some conservative Israelis including an IDF soldier I spoke with have questioned about how October 7 could’ve occurred and the very very slow response to it by the IDF. As well as the Hannibal directive where Israeli soldiers are told to fire upon his rally citizens if they feel like they might be kidnapped or taken hostage. Unfortunately some pro Netanyahu people, or even those who continuously talk about Hamas October 7 and “the need for Israel to defend itself” completely blow this off. It’s unacceptable.
After all Hamas and October 7 is effectively the entire defense that the pro Netanyahu people in this thread have…. they constantly bring it up. So they need to talk about the allegations of Israeli officials funding Hamas in the late 1980s and the insanity of how October 7 could’ve even been allowed to happen.
Sure there are evil people in Hamas. There’s also evil people in the IDF. Start questioning who are the leaders of Hamas start questioning how Hamas got financed in the first place. And you need to look at the border and October 7 in the slow military response to it by the IDF.
The 2 state solution lives nowhere but in the Western imagination. I dont think Netanyahu was ever worried about a functional 2 state solution. But the idea he helped Hamas to weaken the PLO/PA, who he viewed as a greater danger at the time, is reasonable. And is completely consistent with how Israel and the US have operated in the ME for the last 50 years, for good or bad.A
There’s now a major disconnection between American politicians and American people with the ladder overwhelmingly critical of Israel.
Even within Israel, a substantial portion of Israelis are overwhelmingly critical of Netanyahu. It’s an important distinction to be made here when you use these words like Israel and the USA in the context that you are.
I seriously doubt you would have to “forcibly remove” anyone to reduce the population of Gaza so it is manageable. Just get rid of UNRWA and treat the Palestinians like every other refugee population. If someone whose home was destroyed is adamant about keeping their family there to live in a tent for the foreseeable future then knock yourself out. But at least
It is Israel’s responsibility and if they are noble, that is to say their current government administration, they should certainly allow some number of Gazans the option to go live in Israel, like a home in Tel Aviv. Or at least provide an orphan center for the many babies and children whose parents have been killed by the IDF.
This is especially true for pro Israel people who believe there is no genocide or ethnic cleansing going on in Gaza. They all admit just as the IDF does that some number of Palestinian civilians have been killed even if they say it’s an accident…. one can argue it is now the responsibility of the government of Israel to provide homes in Tel Aviv or other areas of Israel for people of Gaza like civilians who have been affected. It’s actually a specific scenario because technically Israel controls all the power and resources into Gaza and the Palestinian territories anyway. Israel doesn’t allow Gaza to have a lot of things … as Israel controls Gaza’s airspace and maritime capabilities, including fishing zones. Israel is responsible for the people of Gaza. . Again one can argue all they want how bad Palestinians are, but when we’re talking about Palestinian babies and orphans offer them up an opportunity to have a home in Israel and their education is provided by Israeli taxpayer dollars.
A related sidenote, how often do we hear people like Netanyahu make fun of “gays for Gaza” Kind of like shooting himself in the foot considering what Israeli intelligence officials have done to gay Palestinians….. and Israeli officials who for example spike women’s drinks to then be able to picture them in compromising positions again to use as blackmail.
^From Nelk interviewing Bassam Youssef…. Youssef is very well informed about the situation. He like so many people called out Nelk for giving a softball interview to Netanyahu but Talking about how the Nelk boys were used by Israeli propaganda who first used them on a trip to Israel in 2023 and then “activated” them later in 2025. We learned of the $150 million budget that the Israeli propaganda hasbara utilizes.
Canada's pledge is so dumb its based on free elections and Hamas having no control. Why even make the statement at all
Hamas already agreed to step down. that was a crucial part of the January ceasefire agreement.
Canada's pledge is so dumb its based on free elections and Hamas having no control. Why even make the statement at all
Notwithstanding Victor's nonsense about Hamas stepping down, the biggest problem with this is that announcing Hamas will have no place in the future of a Palestine state (which Hamas doesn't want anyways) provides Hamas zero incentive to continue negotiating. And coincidentally Hamas has backtracked to the point negotiations have completely broken down so even Qatar is publicly criticizing them.
At some point we have to accept Hamas is sincere in what they profess. They believe they have a heavenly mandate to conquer Israel, and view Palestinians becoming martyrs for the cause as something to celebrate.
A peaceful 2 state solution is anathema to their entire epistemology.
