Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
do I even need to say it?
Spoiler
...and profit
Gaza isn't very big. Israel can just bomb/bulldoze the remaining infrastructure, turn off the power and and water, and let the rest of the world deal with what to do with the 2 million refugees*. It can also take similar measures in Lebanon in Hezbollah strongholds. For example give enough warning for all civilians to flee, and then raze Daniyeh to the ground. If indiscrimi
Under your razing/starving out scenario, the result will be sanctions (on a country that is very easy to blockade), at which point the only defense Israel will have will be threatening people with nukes. Please note that I am advising against this scenario, and I am surprised the pro-Israel posters in this thread seem happy to follow Netanyahu down the slippery slope.
Also, there are other factors such as "do Israelis want to be able to travel and be respectable global citizens?" The opinion of the rest of the world has to make some difference in the overall strategy.
Regarding your sweeping claims about moral high ground, would you not agree that Israel was on far higher moral ground on Oct 8 than right now? Didn't every major institution condemn Hamas and give Israel carte blanche for whatever response they saw fit?
And here's the thing: that's after blockading the Gazans and "mowing the grass" for two decades. Why not try lifting blockade, give the Gazans a few of their old villages back, treat them with respect (this is most important), and see if that does anything? The current strategy seems to be going pretty badly.
As for your other point, the reason people don't care about Pakistan's cleansing is because there is little to no US/EU involvement in it. Have you noticed that the campus protestors are very focused on US institutions not involving themselves with what they view as a morally reprehensible government?
. Why not try lifting blockade, give the Gazans a few of their old villages back, treat them with respect (this is most important), and see if that does anything?
bc their entire ideology is predicated on exterminating those considered subhuman.
Why not try lifting blockade, give the Gazans a few of their old villages back, treat them with respect (this is most important), and see if that does anything?
The Israelis won't do that because it would be showing mercy to their hated ethnic enemies. They're like the Serb nationalists attempting to eradicate Bosnian Muslims in former Yugoslavia. They will stop at nothing in this pursuit, until they are stopped by force, and they have no shame and no conscience at all.
And here's the thing: that's after blockading the Gazans and "mowing the grass" for two decades. Why not try lifting blockade, give the Gazans a few of their old villages back, treat them with respect (this is most important), and see if that does anything? The current strategy seems to be going pretty badly.
Hamas fired something like 50,000 rockets into Israel during those 2 decades. It is kind of hard to take unilateral steps towards de-escalation in the middle of a prolonged low intensity war with an opponent who is ideologically committed toward your destruction.
That being said, my understanding is that prior to October 7th, Israel had begun a program to let Gaza workers into Israel aimed at the type of de-escalation you are talking about, and it didn't go particularly well. Hamas bragged the workers were actually spies who did reconnaissance to facilitate October 7th. I suspect they were overstating things, but the optics weren't great.
Israel (generally, not Netanyahu per se) seems fairly willing to negotiate and de-escalate with actors who are willing to acknowledge their right to exist and don't vow their destruction. But that certainly doesn't include Hamas.
I could be wrong, but I suspect things have the potential to improve dramatically between Israel and its neighbors if the ideological actors like Hamas and Hezbollah (and Netanyahu) are side-lined. Reports are that the current govt of Lebanon and Israel are interested in de-escalating, with Hezbollah being a giant impediment to this.
As far as the "We are critical of Israel because we support them" argument. If this argument were true, then one would expect citizens of nations that don't support Israel to have lower engagement and criticism. And this isn't true at all. So this empirically seems a very poor explanation of what is going on.
The Israelis won't do that because it would be showing mercy to their hated ethnic enemies. They're like the Serb nationalists attempting to eradicate Bosnian Muslims in former Yugoslavia. They will stop at nothing in this pursuit, until they are stopped by force, and they have no shame and no conscience at all.
And yet, despite this never ending attempt at ethnic eradication; the Muslim Arab population inside Israel and in the Palestinian territories has grown robustly over the last 80 years.
Whereas the Muslim population inside Serbia has virtually disappeared (as has most of the Jewish diaspora in the Arab world).
That being said, I do appreciate you using this example, to show just how bad faith and incorrect your statement is.
I mean the Ottomans were (relatively) pretty chill dudes as far as tolerance and genocide goes. And for all their faults, Iran under the IRGC is pretty diverse and tolerant too. But other than that, the history of 20th century Turkish and Arab nationalism is pretty dark, with a lot of intolerance, ethnic cleansing and genocide; that is very much ongoing. As opposed to Israel, which has remained relatively tolerant, diverse and cosmopolitan throughout its existence.
It is kind of wild that Turkey and most of the rest of the Arab world is pretty much everything Israel is accused of being; except they get a free pass because it doesn't fit the preferred narrative.
Under your razing/starving out scenario, the result will be sanctions (on a country that is very easy to blockade), at which point the only defense Israel will have will be threatening people with nukes. Please note that I am advising against this scenario, and I am surprised the pro-Israel posters in this thread seem happy to follow Netanyahu down the slippery slope. Also, the
It’s quite interesting that Russians as in Russian people are paying the price for their government‘s decision to invade Ukraine. Like if a Russian goes to certain countries, they don’t have access to banks in their country. They have to bring a bunch of cash with them along with other issues…. Imagine that happening to Israeli citizens. Keep in mind a big difference is Israel is backed by the US government even though clearly the American people as already shown do not support Israel’s Operation in Gaza currently.
Tough to imagine a scenario at least in the near future where Israel is sanctioned. Who’s going to do it? I mean if you look at Biden and Trump they’re overwhelmingly pro-Israel. It would have to be someone like a Thomas Massey or a Marjorie Green and they’re not really presidential possibilities.
With regards to the food distribution in Gaza …the point is I’ve seen this from Fox News pro Israel people from Israeli government officials saying
“what country is held to a higher standard than Israel, as we are expected to feed our enemy.”
Yet how often do we hear from the same pro Israel people “the enemy is not the Palestinian people it is Hamas….As soon as Hamas releases the hostages the war is over” …. by the way Hamas offered to release the hostages on October 10, 2023 Israeli government refused it. It’s not about the hostages. it is about Jewish supremacy and a military operation in Gaza that is almost entirely different compared to the US operation in Iraq. Remember when the US invaded Iraq the mission was to remove Saddam Hussein. We were not against the Iraqi people. It is blatantly obvious the racist Jews in Israel want to ethically cleanse Gaza and bring as many Jewish settlers in as possible. The hope is that the tolerant peaceful Jews kick Netanyahu out of power.
Not to mention the constant propaganda about Hamas and October 7 that we constantly hear from pro Netanyahu folks ….it’s like every day they talk about Hamas or October 7 and they blow off Israeli soldiers who believe the Israeli government allowed October 7 to happen
“IDF Soldier Suggests Israel LET OCTOBER 7 Happen”
It’s quite interesting that Russians as in Russian people are paying the price for their government‘s decision to invade Ukraine. Like if a Russian goes to certain countries, they don’t have access to banks in their country. They have to bring a bunch of cash with them along with other issues…. Imagine that happening to Israeli citizens. Keep in mind a big difference is Israel
It is actually strange how disconnected from reality you are. Every day there is a story of an Israeli tourist (normally somewhere in Europe) getting harassed, beaten up or threatened by activist groups with legal actions. Russian tourists/expats get nothing like that, even if Putin aligned oligarchs are targeted by Western govts and banks in ways Israeli elites aren't.
I think most sensible people would agree that normal people being constantly harassed is a bigger deal than billionaire oligarchs being debanked and having their yachts confiscated.
With regards to the food distribution in Gaza …the point is I’ve seen this from Fox News pro Israel people from Israeli government officials saying “what country is held to a higher standard than Israel, as we are expected to feed our enemy.”Yet how often do we hear from the same pro Israel people “the enemy is not the Palestinian people it is Hamas….As soon as Hamas releases t
Well, in the last 20 years the Jewish Israeli population of Gaza went from ~10,000 to 0 and the Palestinian population went from ~1.2 million to over 2 million. So I will say, for all the things Jews are attributed as being good at, they don't seem very adept at genocide. I mean, even in Israel itself where they have complete control the Arab Sunni Muslim population is ~2 million people and growing at around 2% year. Doesn't seem like the genocide is going very well here either.
Meanwhile, while the whole world is outraged at Israel's non-existence ethnic cleansing, Iran has forcibly deported 2 million Afghani's this calendar year, many of whom fled the Taliban years ago and had completely rebuilt their lives in Iran.
Hardest hit will be the women, many of whom got educated and started careers in Iran, only to find themselves forcibly deported to a nation that doesn't allow women to be educated or work.
And the entire pro Palestinian faux outrage crew, special shout out to Trolly, couldn't give a single ****.
Because this was never about human rights or dignity. This is all about feeding your own narcissistic egos by decrying the evil colonialist (((Zionists))) with mostly fake accusations.
Also special shoutout to all the fake feminists who are performatively outraged at fake Western persecution of women, while cheerleading the most brutal misogyny in the world, done in the name of a religion stuck in a barbaric, backwards 7th century morality.
It is actually very wild how in the last 2 years that Israel has been accused by most of the world of fake genocide and ethnic cleansing of Muslims; multiple Muslim nations/groups have undergone very real genocide and ethnic cleansing, involving millions of people. And not a single peep of outrage.
Well, in the last 20 years the Jewish Israeli population of Gaza went from ~10,000 to 0 and the Palestinian population went from ~1.2 million to over 2 million. So I will say, for all the things Jews are attributed as being good at, they don't seem very adept at genocide. I mean, even in Israel itself where they have complete control the Arab Sunni Muslim population is ~2 mil
I wouldn't say that israel was committing genocide in 2015. The genocide began in 2023. The population increasing in the past is not evidence that a genocide is not happening today.
Well, in the last 20 years the Jewish Israeli population of Gaza went from ~10,000 to 0 .
Oh, I wonder where they went.
M5s, populist lefist opposition party in Italy , pro Putin, just did this in the italian parliament, because Meloni correctly refuses to jump upon the "let's recognize palestine as a state"
The so called left in Europe definitely has a soft spot for fascist theocrats (as long as the religion is Islam) and other fascist authoritarian dictators.
Meanwhile, while the whole world is outraged at Israel's non-existence ethnic cleansing, Iran has forcibly deported 2 million Afghani's this calendar year, many of whom fled the Taliban years ago and had completely rebuilt their lives in Iran.Hardest hit will be the women, many of whom got educated and started careers in Iran, only to find themselves forcibly deported to a nati
The good old ''you can't be outraged with Israel because you're not equally outraged about the Rohingya genocide or equally upset about what's happening in Sudan''. What non point.
Maybe if Israel wasn't collecting our tax money and having very obvious and tangible influence on governments all over the world, the world would care less about what's happening there.
The good old ''you can't be outraged with Israel because you're not equally outraged about the Rohingya genocide or equally upset about what's happening in Sudan''. What non point.
Maybe if Israel wasn't collecting our tax money and having very obvious and tangible influence on governments all over the world, the world would care less about what's happening there.
So you are saying you don’t actually have any first principle objection towards genocides, at least so long as it is Muslims genociding minority groups in Muslim majority nations; you are just a fiscal conservative concerned with tax dollars allocation.
Hey, at least you see honest unlike most of the other faux outrage posters in this thread.
So you are saying you don’t actually have any first principle objection towards genocides, at least so long as it is Muslims genociding minority groups in Muslim majority nations; you are just a fiscal conservative concerned with tax dollars allocation.
Hey, at least you see honest unlike most of the other faux outrage posters in this thread.
This might be hard to understand so I'll use as little words as possible but most of us are against genocides and genocides being committed with our tax dollars.
Hamas fired something like 50,000 rockets into Israel during those 2 decades. It is kind of hard to take unilateral steps towards de-escalation in the middle of a prolonged low intensity war with an opponent who is ideologically committed toward your destruction.That being said, my understanding is that prior to October 7th, Israel had begun a program to let Gaza workers into
This isn't respect. This is still a heavily controlled, prison-like situation, a few notches about letting an inmate leave their cell to work on a chain gang. No wonder they faced a constant low-intensity resistance.
Israel (generally, not Netanyahu per se) seems fairly willing to negotiate and de-escalate with actors who are willing to acknowledge their right to exist and don't vow their destruction. But that certainly doesn't include Hamas.
I could be wrong, but I suspect things have the potential to improve dramatically between Israel and its neighbors if the ideological actors like Hamas and Hezbollah (and Netanyahu) are side-lined. Reports are that the current govt of Lebanon and Israel are interested in de-escalating, with Hezbollah being a giant impediment to this.
When your strategy is 100% based on physical control with no ideological control, this is what you get. Given that ideological control is impossible at this point, my proposal is to have a strategy that is not completely based on force and influence. Perhaps that will help with the ideological problem.
As far as the "We are critical of Israel because we support them" argument. If this argument were true, then one would expect citizens of nations that don't support Israel to have lower engagement and criticism. And this isn't true at all. So this empirically seems a very poor explanation of what is going on.
What countries are you talking about? There seems to be far more engagement in the EU and the US than anywhere else.
This might be hard to understand so I'll use as little words as possible but most of us are against genocides and genocides being committed with our tax dollars.
What most of us understood is that you are a alt account of someone. So pls present yourself, just so we all waste less time re-discussing what we already discussed in the past.
I didn’t get that out of any of the quotes from the article.
It is actually strange how disconnected from reality you are. Every day there is a story of an Israeli tourist (normally somewhere in Europe) getting harassed, beaten up or threatened by activist groups with legal actions. Russian tourists/expats get nothing like that, even if Putin aligned oligarchs are targeted by Western govts and banks in ways Israeli elites aren't. I t
No ordinary Russian people as in working-class people do not have access to their bank account when traveling abroad.
You’re also way over blowing harassment of Israelis. And it is quite astonishing considering you have 50,000 Palestinians kille…. …what you have for example in the west are pro-Palestinian protests often led by Jews, where sometimes they shout at or scream at pro-Israel people. There is no systematic antisemitism. Again it’s just an astonishing disconnect from reality or some kind of a weird tactic to blatantly Ignore the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
There has been by the way a killing of a young Palestinian American boy by some fanatical deranged pro-Israel guy in America after October 7. I do recall also some violence against Jews in the USA. Both of these issues are terrible, but it does not represent systemic bigotry against either Muslims or Jews in America.
And your point about the population increase in Palestine is a nothing burger. So what these are people who are indigenous to the land of Palestine, whose ancestors have been there for thousands of years, unlike the European Jews. So what that some of them have had grown in population numbers. Talk about the 50,000 dead Palestinians, and even beyond that The fact that Palestinians living abroad are not allowed to immigrate to Israel, but a Jew anywhere in the world can immigrate to Israel.
You do know most of the world’s Jews live outside Israel, where they prosper in countries like the United States, Russia and Canada.
Yes the most vicious antisemitism ever occurred during the holocaust having nothing to do with Arabs or Muslims. All of these points you are bringing up like a population increase among Palestinians or alleged antisemitism like some pro Israeli person getting yelled at on the street …..in the face of a humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza is quite bizarre.
