Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
Maybe we can answer this with an example.Is it right or wrong to shoot at and kill Palestinian women and children who are in line at aid trucks?Luciom thinks it's right. Morally acceptable because Hamas started this war and still has hostages. If anything the IDF is engaging in a moral endeavor we should support in full until Hamas surrenders unconditionally. Luciom believes th
I'll answer once to this ******ed take because at least you get a feeling of how actual real non pro hamas people consider the topic.
If people in a line are told not to do ANYTHING at all that might suggest they want to use violence, and they start doing it anyway, and you are in a setting like that in palestine right now, yes it is correct to shoot.
Because the life of your soldiers is worth an enormous multiple of their lives. So you are fully right to minimize risks for your soldiers at other people expenses, it is actually morally imperative in the first order to do so (it would be highly treasonous to put your soldiers life in danger to decrease the amount of enemy civilians that risk their lives).
If you never shoot to violent people in lines, sooner or later (like it already happened many times) they get close enough and they start shooting, to you understand that kind of scenario? and you have to make it IMPOSSIBLE to happen, and if the cost is to shoot at civilians who shouldn't have moved to begin with, so be it.
So no it is not necessarily wrong to shoot at a line containing civilians if you have ANY reason to believe anyone among them is attempting to wage violence on your soldiers.
Especially when, and you know this is true, many if not most of those civilians are fully complicit with hamas to begin with. And many if not most of those "children" are 16-19y old boys who should be treated like enemy combatants if they attempt anything violent at all.
There isn't a single video your side has published uncut, showing soldiers just starting to shoot "just because". And that's with puported hundreds of events of that. Everyone has a cellphone, why is it the videos are all short, confused messes where you only see a very partial scene? it is normal to have a completly reasonable justification to shoot when the enemy is a monster like hamas which ONPURPOSE, STRUCTURALLY, builds incidents to try to get as many civilians killed for propaganda purposes.
Do you realize hamas GAINS every time soldiers kill an actual civilian? that it is in their interest to maximize the chance that happens? that they do try to maximize that chance routinely?
It was hamas who started disrupting those lines, causing soldiers to react. Actual civilians only want the food (that hamas steals from them) and will comply to any and all orders. Only hamas people will not comply and will create incidents ON PURPOSE hoping civilians get killed in them.
That's the people you guys are defending. That's the moral abyss the heroes in the IDF have to deal with daily.
I'll answer once to this ******ed take because at least you get a feeling of how actual real non pro hamas people consider the topic.If people in a line are told not to do ANYTHING at all that might suggest they want to use violence, and they start doing it anyway, and you are in a setting like that in palestine right now, yes it is correct to shoot.Because the life of your sol
This is far beyond moral corruption.
There isn't a single video your side has published uncut, showing soldiers just starting to shoot "just because". And that's with puported hundreds of events of that. Everyone has a cellphone, why is it the videos are all short, confused messes where you only see a very partial scene?
We dont even have a video that clearly shows anyone being hit by the warning fire. I am guessing law of probability indicates it had to have happened at some point; but the fact everyone has a cell phone and no video evidence indicates if it has happened, it is SUPER rare.
And the so called thousands deliberately killed in bread line massacres is certainly fake propaganda, which should be obvious if you have any capacity to reason independently.
The entie scheme was planned in the cemetery in Prague, at a meeting on the night of a full moon. We were 12 representatives of the 12 tribes. We wore black robes and attached our real noses, each one a meter long.After drinking the blood of the 12-year-old Christian boy, we drew a pentagram on the floor. We ended the evening at Rockefeller's bank, swimming in a pool full of th
The Hannibal directive is real and has been admitted by former defense minister Yoav Gallant. Look at the photos from 10/7. There are dozens of scorched cars at a stretch, and many obliterated buildings.
What's your theory for how all this stuff got blown up? Did the Palestinian militants bring tons of RPGs on the backs motorbikes and spray them willy-nilly when they had one most powerful militaries in the world coming after them?
No, because the goal of the 10/7 operation was to get as many hostages as possible, giving them the most leverage in negotiations. This led to a lot of situations where they got trapped by helicopters/tanks while they were trying to take hostages inside of structures.
Are you asking me if Victor is morally corrupt for thinking Hamas leaders are freedom fighters/doing the right thing? The answer is obviously yes. Victor is just as insane as Luciom is.
they are unquestionably freedom fighters. are they doing the right thing from a Western liberal perspective? of course not, your racism and White Supremacy dictates that they live as a proper subclass. thats why you label them rats and savages. you agree with the genocide, and you agree with oppression and servitude of those deemed untermensch but as a typical cowardly and hypocritical liberal, you just wish the crimes were hidden better.
it shouldnt be forgotten or diminished how often the Palestinians attempted non-violent resistance. the fact is, genocidal Supremacists of any ilk do not just give freedom and rights to the people the are oppressing for material gain when they are asked nicely.
Too many disgusting stories to report on. They're already working overtime it seems.
All of Gaza is rubble. It's the only conclusion to make. It's far too un-methodical for an army THAT advanced. I'd bring up the innocent civilians death toll but cba reading about John Spencer and his ratios again.
That’s doubtfully why the story has been buried and forgotten less than 2?, 3? days since it was “reported”.
Gaza is in ruins and Israel systematically eliminated their commanders. These things are not mutually exclusive. You don’t seem very knowledgeable, much more interested in making uneducated statements with no sources, which is probably why someone referred to you as the new Victor.
Btw, you never explained the rationale behind your statement that Israel is a money sink. Tbh at this point I’m not even interested anymore.
That’s doubtfully why the story has been buried and forgotten less than 2?, 3? days since it was “reported”. Gaza is in ruins and Israel systematically eliminated their commanders. These things are not mutually exclusive. You don’t seem very knowledgeable, much more interested in making uneducated statements with no sources, which is probably why someone referred to you as t
You remind me of Joffrey constantly having to remind the world he's king. Keep reminding yourself you're ''educated''. You've responded 4 times and the best you've come up with is a screenshot showing Hamas leaders dead. Very informed and educated indeed!
0 answers as to how methodical Israel really is whilst turning all of Gaza into ruins and killing tens of thousands innocent women and children.
The Hannibal directive is real and has been admitted by former defense minister Yoav Gallant. Look at the photos from 10/7. There are dozens of scorched cars at a stretch, and many obliterated buildings.What's your theory for how all this stuff got blown up?
Available evidence indicates somewhere around ~14 Israelis were killed by friendly fire on 10/7. Out of somewhere around 1200 casualties. The Hannibal directive is real, but is being wildly over-utilized in completely bad faith.
As far as the highlighted, there is video evidence this is more or less what happened. Also, lets keep in mind estimates are more Palestinian invaders died in Israel on 10/7 than Israeli victims. It was a 1 way trip for a lot of the fighters, and was always meant to be.
We dont even have a video that clearly shows anyone being hit by the warning fire. I am guessing law of probability indicates it had to have happened at some point; but the fact everyone has a cell phone and no video evidence indicates if it has happened, it is SUPER rare. And the so called thousands deliberately killed in bread line massacres is certainly fake propaganda, wh
Never claimed thousands? There's been 15+ times now reported that IDF has been shooting at people in line for aid. Are we to believe this is all fake? Never happened?
they are unquestionably freedom fighters. are they doing the right thing from a Western liberal perspective? of course not, your racism and White Supremacy dictates that they live as a proper subclass. thats why you label them rats and savages. you agree with the genocide, and you agree with oppression and servitude of those deemed untermensch but as a typical cowardly and
Interesting situation I find myself in. I'm both anti Israel and pro genocide of the Palestinians.
it shouldnt be forgotten or diminished how often the Palestinians attempted non-violent resistance. the fact is, genocidal Supremacists of any ilk do not just give freedom and rights to the people the are oppressing for material gain when they are asked nicely.
I assume you are referring to the "March of Return" in 2018. One (arguably) non-violent demonstration in 80 years isn't a strong case to support your argument.
Also, lets keep in mind it was a "March to Return," not a march to build more water pipelines or open up the country to foreign investment. Perhaps the biggest obstacle to peace is that Palestinian activist demands aren't reasonable. Same reason why pro Palestinian activists can make so little headway in Western nations, even among people who are sympathetic towards the cause; because the demands are not reasonable.
Interesting situation I find myself in. I'm both anti Israel and pro genocide of the Palestinians.
its weird to claim to be anti-Israel and yet oppose the only people fighting back against Israel.
Never claimed thousands? There's been 15+ times now reported that IDF has been shooting at people in line for aid. Are we to believe this is all fake? Never happened?
It is widely reported in western media as thousands. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of Palestinians actually killed in GHF bread lines by IDF fire was single digits.
Gaza: Nearly 1,400 Palestinians killed while seeking food, as UN warns airdrops are no solution.
No one is disputing the military uses live fire as crowd control. So did the American independent contractors hired to manage the sites. Although the IDF claims the first few days were chaotic, and there was a lot less of this when things got more under control after a couple days.
The Hannibal directive is real and has been admitted by former defense minister Yoav Gallant. Look at the photos from 10/7. There are dozens of scorched cars at a stretch, and many obliterated buildings.What's your theory for how all this stuff got blown up? Did the Palestinian militants bring tons of RPGs on the backs motorbikes and spray them willy-nilly when they had one mos
No
Never claimed thousands? There's been 15+ times now reported that IDF has been shooting at people in line for aid. Are we to believe this is all fake? Never happened?
.
I believe it's 100% fake that that happened UNPROVOKED. If people in line start shouting and running toward you , or if they start to riot and so on, it's fully justified to shoot would you agree?
Do you have any reason to believe the IDF shot to a line of people being STILL, doing NOTHING WRONG, just waiting for aid? why would you believe that? and why would they do that without killing everyone at that point, if the idea is killing them all?
What's the rationale that you attribute to the IDF to occasionally "just randomly shoot at the people in lines"? lines that Israel fought HARD to create because in that way they can deliver the aid without hamas stealing it and funding terror with the cash?
Do you understand that there can be perfectly valid reasons to shoot at people who were in lines for aid *and then started doing something bad*?
How do you think the Palestinians should have fought back?
It is widely reported in western media as thousands. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of Palestinians actually killed in GHF bread lines by IDF fire was single digits.
Gaza: Nearly 1,400 Palestinians killed while seeking food, as UN warns airdrops are no solution.No one is disputing the military uses live fire as crowd control.I would be. Certainly didn't think it was thousands but it's higher than 10.
I believe it's 100% fake that that happened UNPROVOKED. If people in line start shouting and running toward you , or if they start to riot and so on, it's fully justified to shoot would you agree? Do you have any reason to believe the IDF shot to a line of people being STILL, doing NOTHING WRONG, just waiting for aid? why would you believe that? and why would they do that witho
Unless these people are Hamas and are armed the answer is no. Of course you believe a 14 year old throwing stones at a tank should have his brains blown out so clearly we're not living on the same planet.
Good question. I'm going to say I don't know. My definition of fighting back though certainly isn't stumbling your way into a festival and killing a bunch of innocent civilians dancing in the name of peace(ironic I know).
its pretty telling that you are so sure this happened as described
anyway, Oct 7th was almost 2 years ago. its pretty insane not to be super pro Hamas right now.
I assume you are referring to the "March of Return" in 2018. One (arguably) non-violent demonstration in 80 years isn't a strong case to support your argument.Also, lets keep in mind it was a "March to Return," not a march to build more water pipelines or open up the country to foreign investment. Perhaps the biggest obstacle to peace is that Palestinian activist demands aren
thats only a small part of the non-violent resistance they engage in. but merely just existing and not bowing to the genocidal superiority of Israelis like Blue is an affront to the Jewish Supremacists.
this is yet another idea where Lucim is at least consistent and honest. his position is that the Palestinians can leave or die. thats the same position as Blue, and Bibi, and Haaretz. they are all just varying degrees of honest about their desires.
its pretty telling that you are so sure this happened as described
anyway, Oct 7th was almost 2 years ago. its pretty insane not to be super pro Hamas right now.
I mean I've literally seen multiple pov videos showing exactly that lol? Are we now also denying that?
I'll never be pro death cults.
Unless these people are Hamas and are armed the answer is no. Of course you believe a 14 year old throwing stones at a tank should have his brains blown out so clearly we're not living on the same planet.
so you have to let the 14y old throw rocks while adults prepare to snipe you? is that your strategy? after one occurrence of them using kids in front to prepar a serious attack behind, would you agree in the future to start shooting at the first sign of violence?
or the idea is "poor kid" and let your soldiers die?
