In other news
In the current news climate we see that some figures and events tend to dominate the front-pages heavily. Still, there a
Has anyone ever claimed that? I've always heard that increases in wealth (and healthcare) led to fewer children.
a dramatically high number of people in the west claim that if we gave young people more money they would have a lot more children.
Ever heard of "if childcare was subsidized many more people would have kids"? well that's false
a dramatically high number of people in the west claim that if we gave young people more money they would have a lot more children.
Ever heard of "if childcare was subsidized many more people would have kids"? well that's false
Well that goes against about empirical data we have it seem tho I didn’t check , I’m just going purely on memory and what in general we see .
Usually poor countries got the most children and the more advanced countries gets fewer child .
People can « say » w.e they like in hypothetical but in reality the answers seem pretty much different in this .
Well that goes against about empirical data we have it seem tho I didn’t check , I’m just going purely on memory and what in general we see .
Usually poor countries got the most children and the more advanced countries gets fewer child .
People can « say » w.e they like in hypothetical but in reality the answers seem pretty much different in this .
yes but WITHIN RICH COUNTRIES, a ton of people (almost everyone?) believe that if you give people money for having children they would have more children. Which under basic economic assumptions ("incentives matter") would be true.
Except it isn't even for decent sums and we have plenty of examples in europe.
I am not completely following this conversation, but it seems pretty simple that all else being equal fertility is inversely correlated with female social status, with birth control amplifying this relationship (countries where women have low social status they also are going to have less access to birth control).
Which is why highly patriarchal countries where women are clearly defined as having relatively lower social status (often due to conservative interpretation of religious texts) such as Afghanistan, Palestine and Yemen; we see the highest fertility.
I spent too much time in the last 10 years to try to understand this. I was on it well well before it became a ravenous topic on the right. I also spent too much time trying to tell people preoccupied by it that no, their pet thesis isn't the reason.Fertility is cratering everywhere basically with the exception of subsaharian africa (where it's getting lower anyway, but much sl
It’s a theory, but I’d have to see the actual data myself to believe it.
Is there a prescription you have from this or just amusing to you?
I imagine the issue is going to be too many third variables to isolate that as the definitive cause, and if education brings about some other state of affairs that actually is the cause then women’s education is just a proximal cause.
Idk seems like a tough argument to make.
yes but WITHIN RICH COUNTRIES, a ton of people (almost everyone?) believe that if you give people money for having children they would have more children. Which under basic economic assumptions ("incentives matter") would be true.
Except it isn't even for decent sums and we have plenty of examples in europe.
Wouldn’t be true that any reason u give more money to people they would say yes to that reason ?
Why do women want fewer children?
Thats the cause so that’s the question you need to be asking.
a dramatically high number of people in the west claim that if we gave young people more money they would have a lot more children.
Ever heard of "if childcare was subsidized many more people would have kids"? well that's false
Nope, I've never heard a single person that. But that sounds like a policy wanted by the left, and I've only heard of people on the right worrying about there being too few children.
It's been known for at least the last 40 years that increased income leads to fewer children.
Another reason for the decrease I believe is fewer families farming.
yes but WITHIN RICH COUNTRIES, a ton of people (almost everyone?) believe that if you give people money for having children they would have more children.
You think almost everyone believes this yet I've never heard anyone say it?
Certainly there are some individuals who say they aren't having children because they can't afford them, but that's a very small part of the population, and many of those still likely wouldn't even if they had more money.
every time i'm thinking of quitting this site it's discussions like these that keep me coming back
I am not completely following this conversation, but it seems pretty simple that all else being equal fertility is inversely correlated with female social status, with birth control amplifying this relationship (countries where women have low social status they also are going to have less access to birth control). Which is why highly patriarchal countries where women are clear
explain Finland birth rates being the same as Japan basically (ex immigrants) when one is the most gender egalitarian culture in the world or close to it, the other is the most "all power to the men" culture in the first world (just by checking high ranking politician genders in the last 30-40 years).
it's not egalitarianism or lack thereof
It’s a theory, but I’d have to see the actual data myself to believe it.Is there a prescription you have from this or just amusing to you?I imagine the issue is going to be too many third variables to isolate that as the definitive cause, and if education brings about some other state of affairs that actually is the cause then women’s education is just a proxi
not amusing at all but no I have no solution.
there is plenty of data about how access to high school.for women decreases fertility dramatically controlling for everything else, the best is from Bangladesh but there is some for south America as well.
can't link now (on mobile away from home for couple of days), will when I am back to a PC.
keep in mind I approached it the opposite: isolating everything else gives you plenty of glaring existing counterfactuals denying the hypothesis (I listed a few).
the only thing that has no counterfactual is high school women access, and religiosity (like literally in every single country in the world people who identify as highly religious have more children than the rest of the population and everywhere in the world women that didn't complete high school have more children)
Nope, I've never heard a single person that. But that sounds like a policy wanted by the left, and I've only heard of people on the right worrying about there being too few children.
It's been known for at least the last 40 years that increased income leads to fewer children.
Another reason for the decrease I believe is fewer families farming.
absolutely not, the radical right both in Poland and Hungary just shoveled massive amounts of public money in the last 10-15y to benefit people with kids (up to exempting families with 4+ kids from income taxes and the like), basically no result
You think almost everyone believes this yet I've never heard anyone say it?
Certainly there are some individuals who say they aren't having children because they can't afford them, but that's a very small part of the population, and many of those still likely wouldn't even if they had more money.
housing/financial security are almost always at the top of the reasons given not to have kids, second only to "didn't find suitable partners".
but they are basically Always at the top for already formed couples
absolutely not, the radical right both in Poland and Hungary just shoveled massive amounts of public money in the last 10-15y to benefit people with kids (up to exempting families with 4+ kids from income taxes and the like), basically no result
I have no idea what you're saying "absolutely not" to.
housing/financial security are almost always at the top of the reasons given not to have kids, second only to "didn't find suitable partners".
but they are basically Always at the top for already formed couples
So now you're apparently talking about survey results of individuals. We had been discussing national trends.
It's been awhile, but I used to actually participate in activities of childfree groups. The other members were definitely of higher than average income, and the most common reason they expressed for not having children was that they didn't want to be burdened with responsibilities that would prevent them from doing carefree world traveling.
not amusing at all but no I have no solution.there is plenty of data about how access to high school.for women decreases fertility dramatically controlling for everything else, the best is from Bangladesh but there is some for south America as well.can't link now (on mobile away from home for couple of days), will when I am back to a PC.keep in mind I approached it the opposite
Women having access to highschool may lower the fertility RATE, but it does not lower women’s actual fertility. Access to highschool does not lower a woman’s ability to have many children; it lowers her willingness to have many children.
The question, again, is why women are *choosing* to have fewer children when presented with the *choice*, which you astutely pointed out is happening everywhere. Only then will you be able to address the actual problem.
Obviously he was never talking about the ability of women to bear children.
So much bad faith posting around here.
Did Luci let his wife finish middle school? 😀
Obviously he was never talking about the ability of women to bear children.
So much bad faith posting around here.
Of course he isn’t, but he is intentionally blurring the language to suit his agenda that women having nice things is the problem
Women going to highschool has zero effect on fertility
Women having access to highschool may lower the fertility RATE, but it does not lower women’s actual fertility. Access to highschool does not lower a woman’s ability to have many children; it lowers her willingness to have many children. The question, again, is why women are *choosing* to have fewer children when presented with the *choice*, which you astutely point
It depends what you mean by choice, but low fertility rates aren’t everywhere. 112 countries (about half) have fertility rates higher than 2.0. The low global average is skewed by India and China being below that, far below in the latters case.
You can’t measure fertility by number of countries; you have to measure it by numbers of peoples
But that’s all beside the point of my original post, which you seem to have missed. Luciom is framing this discussion in a very weird way by using imprecise language.
explain Finland birth rates being the same as Japan basically (ex immigrants) when one is the most gender egalitarian culture in the world or close to it, the other is the most "all power to the men" culture in the first world (just by checking high ranking politician genders in the last 30-40 years).
it's not egalitarianism or lack thereof
That is an extremely narrow and arbitrary way to decide one country is egalitarian and the other isn’t.
Out of 160 countries, Finland ranks 3rd in gender inequality and Japan 17th, according to whatever system Wikipedia uses. They are both very egalitarian nations, where one has just has a more patriarchal government setup at he top, which is more or less a relic of a very different time when the nation want egalitarian.
And all the nations at the bottom of gender inequality metrics have very high fertility.
You can’t measure fertility by number of countries; you have to measure it by numbers of peoples
But that’s all beside the point of my original post, which you seem to have missed. Luciom is framing this discussion in a very weird way by using imprecise language.
I wouldn’t regard that as weird for him.
You can’t measure fertility by number of countries; you have to measure it by numbers of peoples
But that’s all beside the point of my original post, which you seem to have missed. Luciom is framing this discussion in a very weird way by using imprecise language.
Of course by peoples. The peoples of china and most of the west have low fertility rates., while most African countries do not. I wonder why that is.
