GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

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1993 Finals

Bulls..... 106.7 ppg... 113.0 ortg
Suns..... 106.7 ppg... 113.0 ortg


^^^ 41 ppg required from 1st option = 1-man team and bad cast

Pippen was at 46.9 true shooting and couldn't handle additional load (0% on theees, 59% FT)

It's the biggest carry-job of all-time.. All 6 of Jordan's chips were... I'm sure Lebron would win with those early Cavs teams if he averaged 41 ppg, or 36/7/8 like Jordan in the 91-93' Finals.. Those Cavs had the East all-star center, a 22/5/5 "all-defense" acquisition, and a top 5 defense - this is better offensive and defensive help than the 1st three-peat Bulls, especially since Lebron wasn't considered a good defender/all-defense yet.

Due to the East all-star center, a 22/5/5 acquisition, top defenses and good coaching, history shows that Lebron needed a lot of help to win 50 games and make the 06' Playoffs, while Jordan won 50 with nothing in 88'.

Lebron also got all-star spacing in 09' to open up his driving game and add 21 wins (Mo), while getting a better scorer than Pippen to play 3rd option in 2010 (Jamison).

The reason that Lebron couldn't win with the 2006-2010 Cavs teams despite more help on both sides of the ball than the 1st three-peat Bulls is because he can't dominate like Jordan - he can't carry the scoring load while beating top teams because excessive ball-dominance/downhill doesn't beat top teams.. i.e. lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick.. He simply can't dominate like Jordan, so he couldn't win with the early Cavs teams and had to team up with opponents/opposing franchise players.. It's a disgrace

Despite all the data fallguy is posting that clearly states MJ is better, I'm ignoring it purely because he makes so many clear mistakes that he can be widely dismissed as a source. Like Infowars.

Fear or choke factor = regular efficiency - clutch efficiency

Jordan's was zero

i.e. he had the same efficiency in clutch-time or game-winners (50%) as his regular efficiency (50%).

And what do these numbers have to do with Paxson and Kerr hitting big shots???.. Fear factor matters because Jordan's fearlessness permeates the team... Monkey see, monkey do.. Kerr and Paxson had the same ice water in their veins that Jordan had, while Donyell Marshall, Korver and George Hill were scared like Lebron - Lebron's fear factor is HUGE, aka his clutch or game-winner efficiency is nowhere near his regular efficiency, and this fear permeates the team.

So the reason the Bulls got lucky wasn't Paxson... It was that KJ was hurt - the Suns probably win if KJ was the same guy that dominated Hakeem twice in the 94' and 95' playoffs, or Magic in 1990.. He was routinely leading the Suns to the WCF and 55 wins before Barkley arrived.. And yet the Suns still had an excellent chance to win despite KJ being 75%.. That's how stacked they were - the Bulls' talent was considered nowhere near the Suns.. Heck, Dumas was a budding star that averaged 16 on 57% against Pippen in that series as 4th option - he was the next great wing but cocaine famously took him down.

Suns (and Charles Barkley) were really ****ing good that year. Bulls were lucky to win.

When did Lebron:

1) win without a shortened season or teammate bailout, aka win a legit title?

2) win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player?

3) win without diluting the conference, aka teaming up with opposing franchise players within the conference??

Lebron was lottery in 2019 without his deck-stacking like the East

Ultimately, Lebron turned a lot of opponents into dynasties by losing to them so much, and he also turned guys into HOF by giving them title resumes - this includes Klay, Manu and Parker, who would not be HOF without titles.. Meanwhile, MJ stopped Terry Porter, Kemp, Mark Jackson and KJ from HOF by denying them rings - they all had the dominance or all-time stats to be HOF with even 1 ring.. And I would imagine that the Knicks would've rattled off several rings if they beat the Bulls in 92' (and keep X-Man in that off-season).. Ditto the Sonics, Jazz, Magic or Suns

The 97' Jazz and 92' Blazers were the only Finals opponents to be 2-2 where Game 5 wasn't a giveaway game for the Bulls - every other opponent was down 1-3 with no chance, and this always included a seminal blowout.

So the Bulls didn't get lucky - they simply had the 40 ppg alien needed to overcome big talent deficits... Paxson, Cartwright, and Horace were bit players and outmatched by all-stars or 20 ppg guys like Buck Williams, Duckworth, Kersey, Ainge and Cliff Robinson.. Meanwhile, the Suns had Tom Chambers, Majerle, and Dumas - real players - not bit players

Btw, look at what MJ did in those critical Game 5's against the Blazers (46) and Jazz (flu game).. It's called the GOAT

Michael Jordan was so scared of the moment he gave up the ball before mid-court and wasn't part of any of the action after that. Stood away from the ball terrified of the outcome. Fortunately Pippen created a good shot, and Grant created a great shot.

MJ carried again.

Good point. Suns win in 5 if KJ healthy.

Sad that he needed to play well in Game 5. Could have sorted out the series but choked in the Game 4s.

11/26 with 5TOs in Game 4 against the Blazers. Pippen did his best 17/9/6 on 60%+ shooting, but couldn't carry the horror show of MJ. Only lost by a few points. If only MJ had shown up.

22 points on 27 shots in Game 4 against the Jazz in a loss of 5 points (Bulls actually won in the time MJ was on the bench). Once again, Pippen great 16/12 with 3 steals, just not good enough with MJ's pathetic game.

Yep, being down in 3-1 in the Finals... it's over. Well except when playing against LeBron.

The Flu Game is nothing to be glorified. The real story is he was hungover. Getting plastered the night before a Finals game, that's something GOAT LeBron would NEVER do.

Flu game was all about Scottie anyway. Jazz were so worried about him that they double him on the big possession. Doubled off MJ. MJ then got a wide open shot, because of Pippen.

Pippen = MVP.

LeBron still Top 8 player in the game years after MJ retired.

Really, is this argument even close?

If Jordan no showed a game his nuthuggers would rewrite history and say he did it to motivate his teammates.

His shoe sales make him the GOAT? I guess I never realized Tim Horton is the hockey GOAT for his coffee sales.

If LeBron was Jordan he would've announced his retirement the moment the Warriors got Durant.

Not 5... Maybe 7

In the 93' Finals, KJ was kind of like Iggy, Bogut, or Curry in the 16' Finals, aka banged up and nowhere near 100% (Curry's surgically-repaired MCL needed a rest after the grueling OKC series).

Essentially, Lebron was much luckier in the 16' Finals based on opponent injuries, even without considering the teammate or league bailouts that Jordan didn't get..

Ultimately, Jordan benefitted from Worthy and KJ being hurt, while Lebron benefitted from even more significant injuries in the 16' and 20' Finals, along with league and teammate bailout.. Lebron also benefitted from Kyrie being hurt in the 18' ECF - Kyrie would've easily put the Celtics over the top, just like he did for Lebron in 2016 (compared to 2015), or Luka in 2024.
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The 2016 Cavs had so much talent that they could mess around and let the tortoise get a big lead (3-1) - i.e. Lebron sabotaged the series by wetting the bed for 4 games.. He cut it too close though and needed teammate bailout, and even the league had to step up and suspend the Warriors' alpha... Suspension of the series alpha is actually why Lebron had the courage to step up and turn the series around..

The series can be viewed as a big knock on Lebron, since he had the unprecedented help of a sidekick outplaying the MVP (unlosable situation), yet his preseason favorite "big 3" was losing to a 1-man team.. The 1-man team had a sidekick that underproduced 09' Mo or Hornacek... aka 09' Lebron and 07' Dirk got credit for 1-man carry-jobs despite much bigger producers at sidekick than Klay.

Have you ever played basketball drunk?.. It's pretty f'ing hard to make shots.

And look how simple MJ made each play - Lebron lacks the depth of skills to moderate his game like that and dominate using simple movements, fundamentals, and jumpshots

It's weird that they were scared of Pippen, even on the post versus the shorter Hornacek, aka when has Pippen ever scored in such a critical spot?.. You tell me....

So it was a big blunder by the Jazz to double off Jordan obviously, but it was smart coaching by Phil - i.e. he set it up so that the ball ends up in Jordan's hands, just like it always does..

I'm not sure if Phil actually drew that up, or whether that was simply the developed chemistry of the triangle to get the ball to MJ, some way, some how.

A lot more than 8 guys can win the 1st Round with Luka and avoid being a massive negative all year (Lakers massively lost when LeBron was on the floor last year - LeBron was the first negative ever to make All-NBA, aka fraud).

Secondly, when there's a respected old guy on the court, the entire game is played at a slower speed for the Lakers.. Otoh, a younger guy in LeBron's place allows the Lakers to move faster out there and put pressure on teams/wear defenses down (thus leaving them less capacity for offense, aka win the attrition battle inherent in every basketball game).. And defensively, it would be like night and day too - they would move faster on defense of course, but their defensive requirements would be lower from facing worn out opponents..

So the media/fans are simply quite dumb and think LeBron's massive negative last year was random, lol.. They don't understand the factors outlined in the previous paragraph that affects plus/minus... They don't understand that not all 25 ppg is the same or has the same impact.. Ultimately, Lebron isn't good at basketball anymore compared to the top guys, or even the second tier of guys.. He's in the 3rd tier at best.

It isn't - Jordan is far superior.

LeBron has played 8 more seasons, yet he still can't reach MJ's number of titles or MVP's.

MJ also has the goat MVP longevity (he won MVP's throughout an 11-year period, compared to a 5-year period for Lebron).

No they wouldn't.. They would simply realize that he's just like everyone else - a no-show, a quitter, choker, etc, etc

Before the 3-point line was instituted, MVP's could be mostly defensive players like Russell, Cowens, or Unseld... But once the 3-point line started, 45 of 45 MVP's have been thoroughly dominant offensive players.

The point is that it became a different game entirely, aka offensive basketball, aka modern era .

So MJ is the goat because he's the goat of the version of basketball that requires good offense, aka modern basketball.. The goat criteria is goat winning (2 three-peats) and also goat stats (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, PPG, usage/ortg, plus-minus, raptor, etc, etc).

Then there are other things like carrying the scoring load, because no one else carried the scoring load compared to what MJ did - his carry-jobs stand alone... He also won with the least all-star help of any modern player that has multiple rings.. Infact, the instant he got 1 all-star, he didn't lose 3 straight games for 9 YEARS (90-98').. Then there's media accolade - i.e. only 4 guys won MVP, FMVP, scoring title and all-defense in 1 season - MJ, MJ, MJ, MJ.. There are so many ways to show MJ's goatness, aka the highest PPG for a DPOY season was Hakeem with 27 ppg, except MJ averaged 35 + DPOY in 88'... Again, it's never-ending.

Jordan would've SALIVATED at the extra comp because the lack of comp is why he retired - this is common knowledge and well-documented.

41 ppg while 3-peating - nothing else to prove... He would never have retired if he lost to barkley - people don't realize that and the media was too dumb to ask him that question.

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this proves that jordan WANTED teammates to dominate and produce:

This shows how much Jordan wins when he has just a little help... And Jordan knew it, aka "you do that, we dominate!!"

There was some crazy stat that Jordan was 96-2 or something when Pippen scored 25+ in a game.. Otoh, Lebron has various 25 ppg teammates and barely wins 50 games with 1st Round exit.. lol

Maybe MJ should have shoot less so Pippen could get more shot attempts. But MJ's ego wouldn't let him. Even if it meant he'd win more.

MJ retired because he created such a cancer among the Bulls team everyone wanted out even though they were winning.

uh oh. this thread one needs to be careful. draw you in. take over yr mind...well that was back in the day im older now...i can handle it...i can handle it. one post. cmon anatta. it's free.

ok...so think about babe ruth in the 20's like old videos of that slow run into the ball softball leg kick and that huge heavy bat. he had seasons where he'd hit more dingers than other teams hit. he could do that because hardly nobody could hit 90mph except Negro leaguers. anyways, flash forward to 1960's and bob gibson. There is no way Ruth could hit the way he did and touch gibson or koufax...ok nobody else did either, but there were a lot of other guys in the mid to high 90's.

now ruth would adapt if he had to play in the 60's. He'd shorten his swing, he'd get a lighter bat. be a great player in any era. ruth and the 27 yankees, and bob gibson mvp 1967 world series. 40 years.

1984-85 jordan rookie year, quite sure, i remember the game he played on the olympic team vs. nba team exhibition. 2024-25. 40 years! same with the babe vs the goofy big white pitchers with the silly windmill windups throwing pus. that's who was guarding jordan. or that was the help defense at least. there maybe a few dudes that had something you would call elite athleticism who played vs. jordan. but pippen and rodman were 2 of only a few. and his game, like ruth's swing, that midrange, one on one...it's not how they play today. way different game today.

and Lebron can still do it. If you dropped 1980's jordan on the court today, he'd have to change his game. but that would be hard. you have to grow up shooting the 3, developing the moves to get that shot off, i guess he'd could do the ball movement. but he'd be like that dude for the twolves, edwards, jordan a bit taller, better compete level...but with a worse shot. and the shot is everything today. jordan didnt have it. different era. different game, different breed of athletes up and down the lineup. too many freaks today for jordan to just run wild all over the league. yet lebron, steady eddie, even into his forties, is still a handful for these absolute aliens that populate today's nba. Lebron just sees the game, knows the modern game, at a much higher level than jordan ever had to even contemplate. lot of pus ballers in the jordan era.