Out of the top 6 winners at GGPoker 200NL 4 are the same bot

Whether or not the accounts in question are all bots, the pattern of GG taking action (or inaction) that is detrimental to its player base is intact. We know based on history that the company is always going to maximize profit at our expense, so I wouldn't even rule out the possibility that some of the bots belong to them.

The correct response to this is to stop playing there, along with maybe a post like this. But if you're going to make these short of accusations, you should include some hands, some concrete example of the type of behaviors you're talking about. Which, it's still not clear to me what they are. The bots are playing a limping strategy, ok, but what else?

It all seems very speculative at best to be fair

They are 100% bots because of "bot stuff" and profile but we may not know what that entails. I dont think its unlikely actual players are being called bots here.

I can see games played but not specific stats because I dont have a GG subscription. I dont like the room and its ways and therefore dont play there.

What do you mean their average is super close? On most stats that holds true for any reg at a certain level. And at my midstakes games I can certainly find a lot of players who 27/23/11 exactly, doesnt mean its botting.

I agree GG definitely has a pattern of not acting on customer concerns.
But these bots also play ignition, acr & ipoker I read
Do they have the nicknames there, and if not, how do you know its the same bot?
I assumed you emailed those sites just as GG. And how did they reply? Are they more inclined to take action?

basically, all accounts type 1 have same stats all accros the board, like , vpip pfr 3bet wwsf AF agression% and many other important ones, i dont know if this exact profiles plays at other sites, maybe t hey change from site to site, when i say "bot stuff" are specific things only bots do, that i will not say all here right now, because its a way i can find then, but, like i said, i sent all these informations to GG, right now, and also many times before, and got success in general, usually they ban the players after a while, but, my goal is not banning these specific accounts, i think GG should change the way they protect the site from bots, and because of that, i sent emails explaining how they can counter the bots, and said everything i know about then, and im asking to people to help sending emails to maybe make then change these things.

Ok we are not getting any info on what "bot stuff" is, clear.

But when looking at a player pool (and definitely a decent one) similar vpip/pfr/3b/wwsf/agg stats are inevitable and on its own nowhere near enough to conclude something odd is going on

I am wondering why you are not adressing this section because its important to know what other sites do about botting and if they are more trustworthy than GG for instance:

I agree GG definitely has a pattern of not acting on customer concerns.
But these bots also play ignition, acr & ipoker I read
I assumed you emailed those sites as well... how did they reply? Are they more inclined to take action?

no, i didnt email then, at least not right now, there is a post that i did, and also email ACR, but this was many years ago, i made a list with many accounts that where bots, it was like, out of the top grinders of ACR, 25% of then were the same bot, then i made a post and reported then, ACR banned then, then they refund people with the money, and also had a site where you could see the banned nicknames, IMO, this is way better than what GG does, but, the problem is, GG overall is a better site because it has better software and more recreationals, what will happen is, if there are 10 bots at both sites, 10 bots at GG would be like 1 in 1000 accounts, at ACR would be 1 in 100 for example, so, overall, i think every site currently have bot issues besides maybe pokerstars, because i dont remember seeing bots there, but last time i played was many years ago, idk if the bots are the exact same, but, they share the same kind of plays, i have friends who play at ipoker and acr, and they send me the plays, stats, patterns etc.., very similar to GG bots.

I hope that the study you made to identify the alleged bots includes more relevant information, than playing similar stats. Remember that, regardless of how shady GG is, you are the one bringing the accusations, thus the burden of proof is 100% on you. Especially since you publicly posted players names.

E.g. for the ACR bots there was a pretty interesting video on Alvin's channel, where he dissected the stats and not only the bots had similar stats and styles, but also, they had similar stats that were unusual (I believe preflop), AND, what neither bot NEVER did was a very relevant piece of information. Neither bot never overbet flop, over a very large sample. Never. Absolute 0%. Remember those players were winning mid to highstakes at a decent clip. All combined, we have a stronger case right? There were more stuff that I don't remember very well.

i know my friend, the problem is, sadly the bot owners know that now, and they dont do that anymore, now all the bots have slightly different stats all across the board, but, the "type 1" is pretty much like those bots from ACR, all do a lot of uncommon stats, and yes, i tried to compare the other players to see if there ccould be other players like that, and no, only the bots are equal, the other players are completly different, like, night and day, but, next batch will be all different, they will probably have different stats and it will be hard to get then, unless, GG changes some stuff i sent there and explained how to prevent the bots.

also, yes, i sent all the evidence to GG, there are at least 10 different things that i can detect then.

"very similar patterns" between players is not saying anything.
Players use the same study materials, some are in the same coaching programme. Styles will be similar.

If the same bots exist on GG, ACR, ignition and iPoker... Why did you decide to only email GG about them and let the other 3 sites off the hook?
And why did you decide to create this thread only about GG even though the same bots are active on at least 3 other sites?

it is exactly the same botfarm, i played vs them 5 years on ACR and now i play vs them on GG

why instead of complain here, why dont you go and do the same thing on other sites?, i dont play on the other sites, thats why, also, for the last time, ok, if you think "very similar patterns" doesnt say anything, its your opinion, but, ONLY THE BOTS have those, there is not a single other reg that has 4 or 5 accounts playing close to identical in many ways, i did the research and im saying this here, if you want , you can do the same, why dont you ***** help or at least do something instead of just making a bilion questions that i already answered?, its pretty simple, there are 5 accounts playing same stats all accros the board with like 1-2% difference, then, this doesnt happen with anyone else, only with these accounts, but, for you this doesnt prove anything, then whatever.

I know OP is well intentioned, and the concern about safety and fairness is one we all share.

With that said, I will never understand why not tell all the facts straight away, like Tyler did, giving excuses like we are concerned that the botters will update their bots (which if they are smart enough to do those bots in the first place, they will do anyway after some time because they understand the nature of exploits, and of the cat and mouse game in a broader sense), but publicly post the screennames, which will only lead to all of them cashing out (no money left if they are proven to be bots) and the problem remaining with new accs poping out. The latter is quicker and easier than the former btw.

I wonder how many of the "we're arguing against the original poster" are just casual players. and actually have nothing to do with the topic.

We've already seen it on the ggpoker reddit... where some casual recs discuss against the topic, like the threadstarter is just a sore loser.

The fact that the bots are active on WPN and Ignition is common knowledge among active regs, so why should we still discuss it?

The topic of ggpoker and bots is over 1.5 years old now, and the situation has only gotten worse.

The rnc pool, at least, is full of bots, or at least full of regs with fake accounts that dominate the leaderboards every time with fresh accounts and a PVI of 1, cash out, and a week later the next wave of new accounts comes along.

thats common knowledge for all grinders there. Just get it: we who know don't want to share all the information, and it's just too tedious to explain everything to random people on the internet.

But who cares? Actually, only the active grinders who don't want to switch sides. Everyone else doesn't care, or even argues against it.

It's just a frustrating situation.

no one loves to blindly defend cheating on poker sites quite like slugant, pops up in every thread to give his piece when it's clear he has no idea what he is talking about and doesn't even play online in a serious manner. loves the sound of his fingers on his own keyboard though

same cheater still playing every single day this year winning leaderboard in 1/2 plo without ever skipping a beat. slugant would just say he's an impressive dedicated player like the GG subreddit mods ha ha

how is it that even ignition sends out refunds for bots/cheaters but no one who plays cash games on GG ever receives one? hmm

well, i literally said one way of getting then, they all have the same stats, now go ahead and look for it and see with your own eyes if you dont believe me, thats it, the other that dont have the same stats as type 1, are also bots, share the same things the type 1 do, these specific things i will not say because its my way of detecting them, but, if also want to know, you can just study then (and all the previous bots) and you will see...

about the cashout thing, they are making 100-300k per month, and they are for sure cashing out everything, if they lose now it will be only 1% of what they made.

also, i did say all these ways of detecting directly to GG to help then to find the bots, i will just not post it here, but, the type one bot already having the same stats is already enough to know that those accounts are either bots or some kind of RTA that all the accounts are using at the same time.

each account is making between 25 and 75k a month playing 100 and 200nl?

The fruky account mentioned is up 7k in 2 years... so I guess not

I never dismissed the facts that botfarms have existed and still exist.
The claim that its the exact same bot however is very questionable. And the evidence displayed here isnt strong either.
If its common knowledge that these players on 4 sites are the same bots than showing some evidence wouldnt be a far stretch right?
Especially when the story isnt consistent:

What is it now? same guy each day or a different one each week, get the stories straight.
But you are right. Asking for clarification or evidence is of course a bizarre to do when making accusations

Because I show criticism of the proof I must be right. Fwiw i've been an online pro for 15+ years and I think GG is shady as hell and their support is below par. Their rake is insane, preflop rake is absurd to me and the whole PVI system is something I dislike too. Thats why I dont play there, but you guys who know all this and know there are botfarms keep playing there??? why would you?

If you are sure and have the evidence the same bots are on the other sites, try showing them your evidence and see what happens. If they act it will undoubtedly strengthen your case with GG and force their hand. Anyway whatever you do at least you are trying to do something positive and GL with it.

You can see my thread about the most obvious bot ring being about 50% of the player pool in the Ontario ring fence pool and it took them over 8 months to ban them...

I had hoped this was more of a small site gg offshoot thing but that site actually had massive traffic considering. The thing I learned from that experience is no one cares if it does not affect them (even the local wining regulars didn't care because the bots were beatable) . since it was on a ring fence site I couldn't get anyone to care I even tried to get multiple podcasts like onlyfriends to cover it and they all ignored me because "lol its canada who cares" but its not just Canada its the same bot operators everywhere in this case it was likely the site runners themself trying to boost numbers in a new market. Im curious if you can give me their playing stats I can tell you if its a similar bot ring. (but its probably not if they are big winners)

This was a group of bots that played nll50- nl200 for lb on gg also . only from 8-3am est only
That being said I had way more evidence then you. your drawing dead the stuff you have is something you cannot easily convince people with without seeing under the hood

lol can confirm this is impossible even with zero rake since im a gg prop player who 18 tables and pays no rake 😵 15k avg is probably the highend for a human.

Did he actually say that? then we can ignore him i missed that.

I don't see where he said that plz don't make things up. edit he almost certainly means all 14 of them . 100-300k % 14 = 7-14k a month which is actually pretty accurate

These don't sound like bots to me tho. because hes saying they have unique styles and exploit. While the technology is there for advanced bots we are less likely to see them because lower tier bots are more likely because the operators expect them to get banned so won't go for the highest tier (or so I would like to think) Like who would design a single bot to play a limp strategy? think about that. That one is definitely a person

ya this guy gave no real evidence (which tbf is hard to do since gg allows no tracking stuff) so i was quite suspect. Thats why you can't tell the difference between a person who found a real bot and a person whos crying about good players beating him. The bot ring I found was so obvious that the circumstance evidence was enough and still no one cared tho. your kind of relying on them making blunders to catch them.

Also op mentions bots are exploiting quite a bit. also I believe this would be impossible to program on gg unless its done by gg themselves. since only gg has a way to have the data to run exploits because the likely way you would design an exploiting bot is with a hud. and gg does not have a hud or available stats. so how can these be bots exploiting if they have no stats? (i do think gg is willing to run bots themselves and were likely running their own bots at ggpoker.ca)

so FernandoCost lets do a small logic puzzle

You say the bots are exploiting. How can they exploit? You can't download gg hand history's and assign player names to them. are you suggesting they found a way to bypass even that? If so this would be the most sophisticated bots ever found. It would involve live action data scraping with camera scraping then relaying that new information to the bots
Or option B just humans. Theres also option C where they are bots with operators but lets not get into that.

I guess they could be doing generic mass data analyst exploits but thats not really how you worded it. but there's a reason most bots are gto and not exploiters

yeah, everything you are saying is wrong, literally, because there are people who can get this data.

about how much the accounts are making, is simple math, with rakeback these accounts are easily making 10bb/100, and playing a mix of 100 and 200, they have at least 14 accounts, each playing on avg 100k hands, some way more, some less, this would be 210k dollars in a month , so i said, between 100-300, but, i bet there are accounts playing rush n cash as well, and there, the volume is much higher, there is a chance these guys could be making even 500k in a month with all accounts because rush n cash 4 tables is way more than playing 9 tables of reg tables, assuming same ammount of bots, they could potentially make up to 500k.

..... please explain how a bot cannot beat a 5% rake ?

While you are formulating a response, do you think no human poker players can beat a 5% rake either ?

how do you even get data on players? if you upload hands to h2n it still does not show player names. theres no hands for sale in Ontario gg that im aware of. it changes it a bit if you can get them but its still not the easiest type of bot to make. and if your bots at risk of being banned you tend to make the most simple form which is gto because it becomes a numbers game of dodging bans at that point