GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Today's game is "3ball", not basketball, so the stats are inflated - guys like Barkley, Malone, Hakeem and Robinson > Jokic but simply never got to play with an open paint
And everyone says Pippen's defense was valuable, yet no one thinks 4x DPOY Rudy Gilbert is good help for Ant - Ant had a franchise player in KAT, plus Gobert, plus McDaniels and good cast/coach - MJ three-peated with less.. The issue is that Ant has a dumb "downhill" ball-dominator skillset and doesn't know how to operate off screens or play 5-man basketball.. He has zero fundamentals and weak bag - he's a step-back machine.
Barkley was 2 inches taller and a once in a lifetime physical specimen that dominated Karl Malone and Alonzo Mourning inside.
Ant has a fraction of the strength, scoring ability or ability to dominate and take over basketball games
Ant is a small athlete/shrimp.. He can't be compared to dominant inside players like Barkley or Shaq.. Heck, pre-injury Rose was far superior to Ant - Ant is a poor man's Rose, except without the bag..
Again, Ant is comparable to prime Lillard, aka KJ... So American basketball has cratered from MJ to KJ, which confirms how weak the league is compared to prior eras
* Only MJ could win 6 with Pippen, while 200 guys go 1/6 with AD or 2/4 with Wade, or 1/4 with Love/Kyrie... Lebron can't reach the goat caliber of 3-peats, 70 wins, or dynasty no matter who we put around him, aka objectively inferior to MJ
* Lebron's turned the Spurs & Warriors into dynasties by losing to them so many times - they're only dynasties because they beat Lebron 5 times.. Meanwhile, the record loss in 2014 single-handedly catapulted the Spurs to "great team" status - NO ONE THOUGHT they were world-beaters until they blew away the Heat - essentially, Lebron's many catastrophic losses made his comp "great"
Jordan is basically Ant now*. Americans are just as good, it's just the world caught up and overtook them. It's to be expected. USA population is 300M. Jordan got to effectively play against that. BBall is world wide now. 8 billion people. USA is a fraction of that. Even if it's better than average, it's just a fraction of the talent pool.
Facts are MJ got to play in a diluted league with a loaded team and a commissioner that wanted him to win.
* Ant probaby better because he can shoot 3s.
Barkley was the 'round mound of rebound' because he was kind of fat. And he's admitted his true height was 6'4" which is the same as Ant.
Imagine a 6'4" chubby guy who has been very clear he doesn't like to workout and likes to eat junk food dominating a league. That's proof of how weak the league was.
It's a really good question how Barkley would fare today. Not well I think. He wasn't much of a shooter either.
Barkley was the 'round mound of rebound' because he was kind of fat. And he's admitted his true height was 6'4" which is the same as Ant.Imagine a 6'4" chubby guy who has been very clear he doesn't like to workout and likes to eat junk food dominating a league. That's proof of how weak the league was. It's a really good question how Barkley would fare today. Not well I thin
Photos and documented measurements show Barkley was 6'6" and everything that Zion was supposed to be
Jordan is basically Ant now.. Americans are just as good,
it's just the world caught up and overtook them.
That's just an ignorance about basketball coupled with delusion of wanting to believe that current things are the best.. But devolvement is a real thing, and today's game has bastardized basketball into "3ball"..
The fact that beginner shooters like Westbrick or Giannis can dominate today's game, or unathletic bums like Luka and Jokic - this shows how weak American competition has become, and the rules/format (open paint/hands-off).
Specifically, snails like Jokic can manipulate defensive 3 seconds or simply waltz into the lane untouched, while the open paint allows bricklayers like Giannis to still feast - he isn't forced to shoot over packed paints and therefore isn't punished for weak shooting like prior eras... And today's PNR 3ball spamming doesn't force players to THINK - it's "accidental" basketball as Kobe once put it, and it shows up when they drastically underperform in international formats against 1-man teams.
I guarantee that bricklayers or fatboys like Giannis and Luka would look ordinary in a tougher format against Hakeem, MJ, Robinson, or even tertiary guys like Derrick Coleman, Otis Thorpe, Larry Nance, Vin Baker, Schrempf, Kukoc, Elliot - bigger, faster, stronger than today's softies and video game players.. Many of today's centers would be PF's back then, or even SF.
It's to be expected. USA population is 300M. Jordan got to effectively play against that. BBall is world wide now. 8 billion people. USA is a fraction of that. Even if it's better than average, it's just a fraction of the talent pool.
^^^ Regardless, Americans still make up 77% of the NBA, and so they're still the majority, and this majority is much worse than prior eras, thereby making the league much worse...
Regarding the American talent in 1985 vs today, we see that Jordan/Magic/Bird/Kareem/Dr. J/Moses destroying Ant/Ja/Tatum..
like, it's not even CLOSE...
It's the same way if you pick any year until around 2018 when the "no impeding the ballhandler" rules were implemented (thereby mandating no defense and automatic penetration) - this cemented PNR spamming skillsets as the standard for American basketball..
Facts are MJ got to play in a diluted league with a loaded team and a commissioner that wanted him to win.
It's common knowledge that MJ had the least scoring help in the league and worse defenses than all of the ECF and Finals opponents during the 1st three-peat (91' pistons, 91' lakers, 92' knicks, 92' blazers, 93' knicks).
MJ never had a Kareem, Kobe, AD or some other dominator/franchise player to carry him or even tag team, while everyone else in history did.. So he's goat because it's considered 6 carry-jobs.
It's easy to forget that Jordan was thrown into the playoffs with an 8 seed in Year 1, while Lebron was gifted 3 seasons to develop a favored high seed before entering his first playoffs in 06'... The all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas needed a pippen-like acquisition to make the 06' Playoffs (22/5/5 and 1st Team Defense).
Ant takes 5 and 6 dribbles to get to the hole just like his fellow little-men Westbrook or Rose - this can't be compared to tall wings like Kawhi, MJ, Lebron or Kobe that get to the rim in 1 dribble, or bigs that dominate the paint like Malone or Barkley.
People are just ignorant when they compare a shrimp with baby hands that falls down after every dunk to Jordan... Ant can't win with a 4x-time DPOY, plus McDaniels and a franchise guy like KAT - MJ three-peated with less..
And of course Giannis is nowhere near Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Robinson and others, so the world hasn't caught up to the 80's or 90's, even if it caught up to the softies in 2025.
Thread Cliffs
Jokic, Giannis, and Luka represent "the world", and they've surpassed today's best Americans like Ant, Ja and Tatum, but they still trail the best Americans of prior eras like Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, MJ, Curry, Kobe, Duncan and Lebron.. Essentially, American basketball has cratered into a dogshit embarrassment... Our 12 All-NBA players barely beat 1 or 2-man teams internationally.. Jokic, Giannis and Luka laugh at our beginner rules/format and say it's easy work.
It's okay. We all know how terrible the 90s were and that it allowed one man to dominate against inferior talent. In 30 years they will be saying the same about LeBron. At that stage MJ will be seen as someone like Wilt. Just really good in a inferior era. He'll probably still be Top 10, but (like Wilt) it will be hard to know if he's 7th of 70th because of how terrible the basketball was in the era.
The game keeps getting better. 30 years from now it will make todays game look unskilled. Basically how people see the 80s/90s now.
Most likely this is the truth. And when we watch the LeBron footage, we'll laugh at how bad the picture is.
Although, LeBron might still be playing.
I doubt Lebron will be goat by then in 30+ years .
They will think both played vs plumber.
So they will watch who dominated and won the most .
Mj .
I doubt Lebron will be goat by then in 30+ years .
They will think both played vs plumber.
So they will watch who dominated and won the most .
Mj .
You're right that in 30 years Lebron will likely not still be the GOAT> If they actually _watch_ then it'll be clear that Lebron was better though.
Yeah the Watchers can say w.e they want .
Me I focus on what players got to say more .
Many top players in LeBron era doesn’t say LeBron is the goat .
While beside Isaiah , not many players says during mj era he isn’t the goat .
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Magic and Isiah saying MJ is GOAT in 1993 during the Finals:
It's okay. We all know how terrible the 90s were and that it allowed one man to dominate against inferior talent. In 30 years they will be saying the same about LeBron. At that stage MJ will be seen as someone like Wilt. Just really good in a inferior era. He'll probably still be Top 10, but (like Wilt) it will be hard to know if he's 7th of 70th because of how terrible the bas
You're talking about MJ as if he's still playing, but it's already been over 30 years since most people began thinking MJ was GOAT.. So he already withstood the 30-year test of time that you referenced, yet he's still considered GOAT by the majority, and this will continue for the foreseeable future.
So once again, you're wrong on every level.
Most people thought MJ was GOAT after he surpassed Bird & Magic by three-peating in 1993 - Magic and Isiah agree (above).
Otoh, the majority think Lebron is #2 at best, so he hasn't even begun a 30-year run of being considered GOAT by a majority of people (while MJ already completed a 30-year run).. So Lebron is way behind and essentially lost - he'll never be considered GOAT by a majority of people, and his ranking will only decline going forward.. Meanwhile, Jordan has grown bigger than Ali or Ruth
Since Giannis and Luka have big holes in their offensive games, the only player in today's game that is as good as Jordan, Shaq, Robinson, Hakeem, Malone or Barkley is Jokic - from a scoring standpoint, Jokic would be last among this group, so it would be his other attributes that close the gap.. However, defensively, he craters compared to all those guys except Barkley
Recent Thread Cliffs
MJ has "stood the test of time" by having a 30-year run (and counting) where a majority of people think he's GOAT, while Lebron has yet to begin such a run because he's still #2 at best by the majority of people after 22 seasons... And since Lebron's ranking declines with each playoff loss, his best bet is to cut his losses and retire - the sooner he retires, the bigger the retirement "bump" to get as close to MJ as possible.
Since MVP's could be mostly defensive players in 2-pointer basketball (prior to 1980), the term "GOAT" refers to offensive basketball, aka modern basketball, where MVP's must be thoroughly dominant offensive players (45 of 45 MVP's).
Accordingly, Jordan's 2 three-peats is the goat standard that Kobe/Shaq, Lebron/Wade, Curry/KD and many others failed to accomplish.. His goat production rates further prove his dominance (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP seasons, PPG, etc)
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Majority opinion regarding the best players that MJ and Lebron beat (as 1st option):
Magic > Curry
Shaq > Duncan
MJ was 4-1 vs Magic and 6-4 vs Shaq, while Lebron was 4-7 vs Duncan and 7-15 vs Curry (5-10 vs Jokic), aka lottery record vs everyone despite franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option, aka super-team, and perennial preseason favorite.
Best players that MJ and Lebron never beat:
Bird > Dirk, Dwight, Ant
Prime Lebron was 2-4 against both Dwight and Dirk as the favorite, and 1-4 vs Ant as the favorite, while MJ was 0-6 as a massive underdog to Bird while averaging 40 ppg
Yeah, bringing up Shaq as not having holes in his game is pretty funny. Even for FG.
FG defines offensive game as ability to hit mid-range contested jumpers when there are better shots available
Why is it okay for Ant to lose with a 4x DPOY when MJ won with a 0x DPOY?
Ant couldn't win with a 4x DPOY teammate, another All-defensive guy, and an equal-scoring partner in KAT or Randle
Ant simply stinks.. He's a short guy that needs 5 and 6 dribbles to get to the rim like Rose or Westbrook, which can't be compared to big guys that get to the rim in 1 dribble like Kawhi, MJ, Kobe or Lebron
Hakeem and Robinson could average 30 against packed paints because they could dominate the post and mid-range, while Giannis needs open paint for his euro-step game..
Today's easy format allows beginner shooters like Giannis to survive by feasting on the open paint.. accordingly, giannis would be NOTHING in prior eras where great touch was required to be a great scorer - he would be a banger, not a scorer, and he isn't Shaq (the exception to what I just said about shooting touch).
And Luka is probably the dumbest player of all-time, aka the biggest ball-dominator EVER - it's either him, Harden or Lebron - the packed paint of prior eras would shut this down.. Luka concedes that the NBA's open paint format is "easy"
So again, these guys have major holes in their games that previous eras would reveal and expose.. Great shooting touch and fundamentals were required back then.. Guys like Barkley, Malone, Hakeem etc had phenomenal TOUCH to make the contested shots that the unspaced format forces them to take
FG defines offensive game as ability to hit mid-range contested jumpers when there are better shots available
^^ but better shots weren't available
Even if you didn't watch back then, it's intuitive.. i.e in previous eras, teammates weren't taking 30-40 threes per game, so the spacing didn't exist - this meant that contested shots were the expectation[/I and therefore the "better shots" that you reference didn't exist
Since contested shots are the expectation on unspaced courts, everyone developed their own individually-unique way of scoring ON defenders - everyone played differently, aka no one played like Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc.. The individually-unique styles of prior eras contrasts with today's 3-and-D robots that all play the same.. They're unskilled bums and PNR spamming skillsets that are only good at making [I]open shots, because that's what the spaced out format ALLOWS
