Another AA preflop spot / 2-5

Yeah, given reads they are soft playing and the whale is almost always calling the 4!, but probably doesn't have anything to call a shove with, it seems like you have to flat call. With the same action and different reads on the players, it could be a call.

Is V's 4! range anything other than AA(1 combo), KK(6 combos), AKs(8 combos)? Because of the positions, maybe QQ(6 combos). 5! folds out everything but AA....

we could ask the million dollar question of how often does bb call if we click it back lol (i would not do this as opportunities like this hand come up extremely infrequently where the universe blesses you and you cannot afford to spit in its face by altering destiny and taking stupid lines).

just turn to the whale and say lets get him while glaring at mp1 and call the 225. this opens up the possibility of telling the whale "we got him" if you get stacked while trapping which is probably worth ~800$ in ev alone

If a random 4! at 2/5, it would definitely be a shove, because a random probably could 4!/fold a premium hand.

This is gold.

We agree that both options are +ev and it is not possible to prove which is better. We disagree on which is better. I think you view mp1 very badly; disciplined enough to fold if we go all in but too stupid to figure it out if we call and bet a "harmless" flop to go all in just by stages given his hand is an open book what we likely have. Now if we did not have the "unspoken" agreement we are effectively colluding to loot the fish while making certain we hurt the other as little as possible so we can loot the fish more successfully I think about the hand differently but we do have that deal and long term it benefits us both.

Lol pretty tilted at myself that i didnt think of this

I asked before but let me ask you. If this hand was posted from MP and he had QQ/KK or AK how many here would say he should call the 5b shove from a reg for 200bb in these positions? Would you say it’s a call?

I don't think anyone views mp1 ''very badly'' what ever that means. It's actually quite literally the opposite because OP told us he's a reg he respects so we should give him the same grace. You're going to have a 4b call range in this very specific scenario and for MP1 to just assume ''this must be AA'' is nonsense because we have a whale in the BB and we're 200bb eff with MP1 and 180bb effective with the whale.

I'd actually go as far as saying we do NOT have a 5b range in this scenario, rare as they may be.

I disagree btw that it's not possible to prove which is better and it's actually quite easy. Is your answer to my question yes or no? That will prove it.

Well, obviously, you have AA preflop, so anything you do in EV+. If you shove and take it preflop 90% of the time, that would be EV+.

No way MP can or should fold KK assuming Hero is shoving QQ+ AK. Not sure about QQ; what’s his equity against that range? He needs around 37% if whale folds.

There’s also the possibility whale has 98s and says “f*** it let’s gamble”. Or he could have a real hand like KQs that he’s probably not folding.

do you think whale is more likely to say lets gamble if its 160 to him closing the action or his entire stack?

what in the thread leads you to believe either hero or mp1 think hero is shoving qq / ak here?

First of all, as a rec, this softplay shit is terrible for the game. Recs might not be good at poker, but generally we aren't stupid. We made enough money to gamble away $X without worrying about it, that doesn't mean we are clueless when pros playing for their rent are colluding. I've been at tables where this happens, and it's obvious. What do we do? We leave and go play somewhere else. Then all the pros whine about the good games going invite only....

It's annoying when some pro is buried in headphones, playing nitty and bringing down the vibe of the game. When a few pros are clearly trying to fleece you it takes away the fun entirely and we just don't come back. From the outside looking in, pros would do themselves a favor removing the stick, having a drink, engaging in some good natured ribbing and splashing around a little rather than being relentlessly focused on taking our money to the point of cheating. And yes, collusion is cheating. If you're actively trying to take my money, but not actively trying to take Joe's money, you're cheating. I can't do anything to prove it, but I can change tables or go to a different casino. You're killing your sheep instead of shearing them.

There are quite a few around my stomping grounds that try to grind, but very few of them are actually fun people to play with. Rec players want to have a fun time, and it sucks getting seated at a boring table of regs taking the game too seriously, and it's insult to injury when the regs aren't playing against each other and you're the odd man out. It sucks, and it does drive us recs away from games. Make the poker world bigger, make games fun for recs. Take your profits, but don't be predatory. /rant

That said, I don't think that dynamic is really at play here. Playing a pro different because they have different tendencies is just playing the game. Jamming is terrible here. You're too deep to jam - MP should easily get away for $1k, that would be a punt from him because is a pro H really jamming AK/QQ here? No. Pros at $2/$5 aren't taking that high variance line. Drunk me - I can jam and MP is snap calling. Whale can jam and get called. H in this dynamic can't expect to get called often with such a large jam. And it's too shallow for a small 5!

Implicit collusion is part of the game as long as it’s not discussed or planned. What about when someone is all in for their tournament life and the other two players check it down? Thats collusion too. What about when a big stack raises a bet to half of small stack so that small stack can shove and big stack can reshove? Also collusion.

I understand the recs don’t like it but how would you change it?

Shows talking to you in a serious vein is worthless when I restate your position "i believe its an absolute torch to jam here though impossible to prove" you immediately change your mind and claim it is easy to prove. Assuming mp1 will always fold any hand other than AA to a five bet what is the proper 5 bet range for hero? The answer to that question shows things as well.

Softplaying is not the same as collusion, like signaling each other etc. It doesn't seem good though and is likely to make amateur player uncomfortable.

You're mixing people up. I never said that. Submersible did. I responded to your response to him.

You should try focusing next time you read a post. Perhaps you won't mix up posters and perhaps you won't have to ask a question I have answered already. Now how about you answer my very simple question so we can put this to bed.

Yes or no?

It's like some of you are allergic to paying attention. Have you done a lot of 5b shoving for 200bb for anything but AA?

I change it by not playing that game. Poker doesn't pay my bills, I don't have to play at all, let alone a game where 3-4 regs are soft playing each other. I've seen people check down nutted hands like sets with a hundred bucks in the pot. I picked up my chips, left and never went back. And a lot of larger games around here are going invite only. Ultimately pros who do this just hurt themselves (and other pros). I don't care if I lose, when I win playing poker my wife ensures it doesn't leave the casino. But I want to feel like it was a fair game.

It's up to you all to change it and not tolerate it within the community. Don't do it, and when you see some other pro doing it, call them out. Because the recs figure it out and they can go play somewhere else - and they will.

Obviously not a lot since most live players are scared to 4b but to assume it’s only AA is a bit naive. I think it’s a reasonable spot for hero to jam AK.

Checking it down is blatant collusion, agreed upon in advance and is horrible for the game. Avoiding collisions with good players is reasonable and I assume that’s what OP means.

So let’s say i flat AA here, hand goes to showdown and the fish/whale sees my hand, wouldn’t they assume that im trying to softplay with mp1 and im trying to get the whale’s money instead?

Do you think long term that would have a worst impact then the ev difference of me just shoving? Keep in mind that you did say shoving is a massive punt here.

Yes thats what i meant, checking it down with another pro is dumb af and a horrible look.

Apart from the obvious contradiction in the quoted you're entitled to your opinion lol but lets be real, if you think this is a reasonable spot for a 5b shove for 200bb with AK your opinion should be ignored.

I think we need to clarify what is happening here. I read the OP as ''MP1 and I don't go out of our way to end up in HU dick measuring contests but we're not softplaying/colluding''.

I agree with your first post regarding how bad a lot of poker regs are for poker. Couldn't agree more and we all need to do better but I don't believe actual collusion or soft-playing is what we are talking about here.

They would assume you trapped both of them and yes, the whale should always assume you're trying to get his money as that is literally the point of poker.

okok results

if whale gets angry you "colluded" him, throw mp1 under the bus and say that guys a ****ing nit and he probably even folds aces if i jam. afterwards u can tell mp1 that the whale is a ****ing nit and probably folds ace jack if you jam.

think in general some people have very odd expectations re pros entertaining them in public games. you are participating in a competitive mental gambling game for money where they have a very real chance of losing ~55% of the time moreso the less engaged they are, not attending their show that you are paying them to perform. realistically games are going private because operators are greedy, popularity is declining, no one has any money, and average rec has fallen too far behind the curve skillwise, not because people are introverted. i say this as someone who generally does most of the heavy lifting re socializing at the table

I can't speak for others, but I wouldn't assume that. 5!s aren't exactly common in a midstack $2/$5 game for a reason. I don't think you have a reasonable 5! range at all unless you're either deeper or shallower. Now if I'm the whale and I fold, then the two of you go to a relatively safe runout with a 1.5x spr, and the money doesn't go in with AA vs KK, that's suspicious. So from this hand at least to this point I don't think the whole soft-play thing comes into play. The logic "I can win more money from MP post flop calling than jamming, and I don't care if BB comes along for the ride" isn't softplaying, it's trying to win the most money.

Not softplaying this hand. The read was they had been softplaying.