Lodge Card Club Raided / Grand Jury does not indict any Lodge employees

the influencer owners of the lodge make their living off of their "good guy" reputations. saying tough titties to players who cant cash their chips and becoming howard lederer type characters could cost them millions in influencer/code money. protecting their reputations by personally guaranteeing chips are cashed is probably worth far more than the entirety of the lodge business value.

This is perhaps the most incorrect statement of the thread. The corporate veil would be easily pierced and there are no doubt personal guarantees. That's just how it tends to work with 99.99% of ultra small businesses like this one.

Now of course he can declare bankruptcy.

People in this thread who think the Lodge Austin has secretly run up a $20 million tab with the janitorial company or some other mysterious vendor and so players won't get paid are .

This seems like an awful, awful take. WTF man.

Ya he got out of being an ambassador of a crypto scam with no accountability but surely this time he will be accountable to protect his great reputation.

Johnny Chan's going to make me whole any day now too. Surely he wants to be in rounders 2. Idk what my ub/ft money would be like if it was in crypto instead of embezzled but I'll never know.

I've had way worse situations in business. I've never had someone going through bankruptcy/serious litigation/financial hardship pay me back in full quickly usually they're legally not allowed to even if they wanted to. In fact there's been money clawed back because they were paying me before other creditors before.

Take a look at the metrics for Robbi Jade Lew. Her stock is skyrocketing. That is how the world works. Bankruptcy lawyers mint money during complex liquidations.

The funds were seized by the State. The players have zero recourse unless the State of Texas returns it. The Lodge owes them nothing.

Are you stupid? The Lodge was set up as an LLC for a reason. There is no personal liability for the owners. Please stop, you're an idiot.

You're conflating intent with outcome. There are many reasons to set it up as an LLC, one of which is liability. The problem is that the corporate veil can be pierced with virtually any financial transaction, meaning that if ownership and the Lodge co-mingled assets in any way that protection disappears. Or worse: if the state determines there was some sort of fraud that corporate veil can be disregarded.

It's critical for The Lodge to win because it could expose the owners to substantial financial risks, personally.

I agree and if Doug personally pays players, he opens himself up towards additional liabilities. That would be considered preferential payment. The players are probably last in line to get paid. Trying to do a sweetheart deal to protect his reputation could horribly backfire.

Texas players - have you seen impact on other rooms yet? At a min I expect people will stop storing chips and convert to all cash but I wonder if regs will start looking for new markets.

TCH Social Austin has seen an uptick in business.

#1 is heavily underrated as a primary reason gambling climbs up the legal ladder and gets to local/state law enforcement. As someone very familiar with TX underground games, and was around when the first card houses opened, it is usually understated how far many spouses or concerned family will go to deny someone (likely a losing player) access to poker or slots etc.

TCH Social has seen a new influx of players. It still boggles my mind that TCH is following in the footsteps of the Lodge by not checking memberships at the door.

The entire case by TABC hinges on the fact that the Lodge did not verify memberships of people walking into the club. Therefore, it nullifies the defense of keeping a gambling place. The very first fucking bullet point in the statute for a defense to gambling is "the gambling occurred in a private place". Once that defense is gone it is open season for money laundering, fraud, etc.

Poker Atlas lulled these fuckheads to sleep. Once Lodge, TCH, etc. installed Poker Atlas into the rooms they quit checking for memberships because to be logged into a game thru Poker Atlas you must have a membership. However, they did not account for people ENTERING THE ROOM without a membership, thus making the entire place OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. Stupid fucks. You had one fucking job, follow the 3 defenses to gambling, because make no mistake, poker is considered gambling by its definition. All you "game of skill" guys want to argue about the OVERALL game and infinite number of hands (yes, a player with better skill will win over time), BUT these idiots are arguing each HAND is the actual gambling which now means luck and variance are at play and an inferior player can win in the short term. Hence, gambling.

All TCH has to do is install a fucking turnstile at the front door where you swipe your card to enter. If your membership is expired, you can't enter the room. Done. You are welcome.

Well stated

TCH Austin has averaged about 11 1/2 NL, single 2/5 or 5/5 NL table, and two 1/2/5 PLO games on a typical weekend. plus whatever tournament might be also going on. For last Fri/Sat, night the 1/2 NL count was around 18-20 at peak times, 3 2/5 NL games, and 4 PLO game tables active. Also realize the Trailblazer tournament series is going on. Don't forget the other 5 TCH locations across the state. I have also notice there has been a slight uptick for weekday active tables.

I think a good question is what happens on Apr 23 - May 4th with WSOP circuit in town. Parking lot situation at TCH is certainly an issue during peak hours. Most other tenants in that strip mall are only open during daytime hours, but it will be a problem when the series starts. They have setup about 25+ additional tables to accommodate for the tournament players influx. There is also a good chunk of tournament dealers from out of town that travel for these series events. It will be interesting to see what the turnout numbers are.

While not a private place is certainly part of the lodge case, that one is a reparable defect. It certainly gives an easy in but the key ultimately is the economic benefit.

The TX cardrooms deficiencies in decreasing order are imo
Raking pot

TABC license because they are gambling places

Tournaments with % fee or a fee tied to the tournament

Charging a seat rent but only when playing (if you only pay the rent when you are in a game, how is the rent not benefitting the house due to the gambling?) Alternatively, they could charge a fee for alternate activities the house facilitated.

Tipping dealers from pot (dealer seems to benefit) (note I have heard even though dealers get paid a min wage, say $3/hr, some rooms charge dealers a table fee similar to how some places charge dancers a stage fee)

Charging seat rent whole time while in private space

While each of these might have defects in eyes of state, they are more repairable lower on the list but almost all are at the second row of the list, liquor license

As I recall, initially TCH was very near the bottom of my list including not even allowing tipping out of the pot.

While not a private place is certainly part of the lodge case, that one is a reparable defect. It certainly gives an easy in but the key ultimately is the economic benefit.

The TX cardrooms deficiencies in decreasing order are imo
Raking pot
A) As a player at the Lodge in Austin, the Lodge has never taken rake.

TABC license because they are gambling places
B) Again, this goes to the private place defense. Alcohol can be sold during a tournament AT A PRIVATE PLACE. The 2005 Greg Abbott opinion on alcohol being sold at a tournament was about a PUBLIC PLACE. A bar wanted to run a tournament, but because it is a PUBLIC PLACE the AG said 'no'.

Tournaments with % fee or a fee tied to the tournament
The Lodge frames the tournament % fee as 'admin costs', and not part of the buy in. The fee does not come out of the prize pool that is stated in the Lodge documentation, it is a separate cost for members.

Charging a seat rent but only when playing (if you only pay the rent when you are in a game, how is the rent not benefitting the house due to the gambling?) Alternatively, they could charge a fee for alternate activities the house facilitated.
They charge a seat rental fee. This 'fee' is for club access. You can choose to play poker, play bridge, play fucking canasta if you want. The $12/hr is to have ACCESS to the club. Again, this is where they fucked up. Originally at TCH you had to pay $12/hr to be in the room, it didn't matter if you were playing cards, pool, darts, or whatever.

Tipping dealers from pot (dealer seems to benefit) (note I have heard even though dealers get paid a min wage, say $3/hr, some rooms charge dealers a table fee similar to how some places charge dancers a stage fee)
This is where I noted that the Lodge looks at poker as from an individual hand point of view. Once the hand is over, all chips/money is in the possession of the player, that player can do whatever they want with those chips/money as long as the chips are not taken out of the pot of the hand that is currently be played.

Charging seat rent whole time while in private space
Already answered.

While each of these might have defects in eyes of state, they are more repairable lower on the list but almost all are at the second row of the list, liquor license

As I recall, initially TCH was very near the bottom of my list including not even allowing tipping out of the pot.
Originally TCH made players buy "tip chips" to tip the dealers so it could not be construed as dealers making money from the game. Lodge lawyers in their infinite wisdom, said "hey, this should be ok if we look at it from the POV of each hand, because the gambling (hand) is over, so the money is in possession of the player and they can do whatever they want with it". This in my opinion, wat the beginning of the breakdown of the rules, they went too far. Then Poker Atlas came and the floodgates opened. RIP Lodge. There is ZERO chancy any player will receive a dime back from the State of Texas once the lawsuit is filed by TABC for seizure of funds.[/QUOTE]

A) never said Lodge took pot rake. The list was about TX cardrooms rooms and many of those do rake pots. In fact almost all in Houston do. I won’t comment on details of other locales.

B) Few problems. AG opinions are not binding. At most they indicate the state won’t pursue criminal activity and won’t support local DA actions. But they are not binding on judges, juries, local prosecutors, nor independent commission administrative actions.

The last one is critical since for independent commission administrative actions, the AG is not involved. TABC admintration is not part of the TX DOJ.

In administrative actions, 1) standard of proof is much lower 2) TABC is “prosecutor” 3) TABC findings of fact get deferral from district courts unless obviously in error.

Finally, the AG does not set the “rules” for TABC esp. not on license issues. Basically they can tell AG to go pound sand. Only after an ALJ hearing, which is not in criminal or even civil court but admin commission, do courts get involved.

The whole AG opinion is really a red hearing and not applicable. As to if TABC finds a poker room a gambling place. The fact is that when “they” decided to get a liquor license, a whole new and different set of rules kick in with very different enforcement. Now they not only must follow criminal codes but also TABC regs where TABC is primary initial arbiter.

You can challenge TABC decision, but not their facts, in court but TABC sanctions remain in place until court overturns. Plus court will generally defer to TABC on TABC rules unless criminal allegations are made.

C) They can call it what they want but if no rational person would pay the fee if the tournament did not exist, it is obvious the fee is tied to the tournament and the house is benefitting from the fee. Thus house is benefitting from tournament.

Or you can look at it as the house charges a fee to administer the tournament. The house benefits from the admin fee. If the tournament were not to exist, there is nothing to administer. Thus the benefit is due to th3 tournament.

Either way if you apply the duck rest, tournaments fail to pass. MAYBE if you charged a time seat fee for tournaments you could pass the duck test. But would players sign up with no clue what the cost would be? How do you handle rebuys and reentries? How about late entries? Maybe could be done but certainly is not how Lodge or anyone is doing it.

The real point is I don’t see tournaments passing duck test.

D) your response is a non sequitur because what you describe, a fee too access the facility is not what occurs. The seat fee is tied to scanning your card into a table. So until you join a game, you can enjoy all the facilities you want wo a fee.

What you describe, facility access hourly fee, I discuss later. So again, what you describe actually proves the defect. That the don’t charge you a fee just for facility access but it is tied to playing poker.

It then becomes another duck test. Is the fee being collected only due to poker? No one is doing it like TCH was back in 2014. Most, including Lodge I believe, don’t even offer other non poker activities beyond a bar and food service. And those don’t require membership to partake. Since those don’t require membership, they can’t be called member activities.

This also ties into private place issues. If they allow anyone to enjoy the food service wo checking membership, which people have said is allowed, including minors, the private place veil is pierced.

E. It does not matter how the Lodge looks at things. It matters how TABC or court look at it depending on which jurisdiction. But even if each hand were separate events, the deale4 is benefitting from each event. If the hand did not happen, would that individual be tipping the dealer?

When one takes a position, one must convince the arbiter that such a position is rational is actuality not theory. Just because one could do something doe#nt mean it is rational to presume they would.

If it was still being done as TCH did with separate tipping chips, the idea might pass muster. But even then, there needs to be some non poker reason for the tip to happen. Even with tip chips would the player be tipping the dealer if no poker was occurring? It could still be a benefit tied to the gambling event.

Also the law doesn’t say the economic benefit has to occur during the gambling event. The benefit can come before, during, or after the gambling.

F) this is how TCH originally structured. You paid the hourly for the hours in the facility. If you were playing poker or pool or darts or canasta or bridge. You paid the fe3 to be there. This also helps, but does not guarantee the benefit question.

Under this model, the facility probably is private. The economic benefit question still must pass the duck test. That is are people paying $12/hr to play pool? Or other activities? Again, just because they can doesn’t mean the court will agree. Plus r3member, with a liquor license, the TABC doesn’t even need to show the hambling is illegal. The TABC rules refer to a gambling place.

It is entirely possible, the court can rule the gambling as legal and at the same time TABC determine it is a place of gambling and they ar3 promoting gambling. With parallel jurisdiction, the facility could be cleared of criminal aspects but the TABC suspension closing and fines also be upheld. Private or public doesn’t even matter then. Who benefits economically doesn’t matter. If TABC finds it is a place of gambling they can suspend license, order facility closed, and fine them.

This is why I pointed out back when they started getting licenses, the whole game was changed. I understand why it started but that doesn’t me@n the choice is wo ramifications. As long as one nearby room is serving, the others will largely follow to compete because gamblers want to drink while they gamble.

If we went back to the original way TCH started this journey, the whole legal illegal argument would remain but imo it is much less likely state would care some locales might. But room would just leave those.

But is that model viable? Maybe not and likely not at current scale. That is why even after TCH started, underground games kept going. Certainly would not be hosting WSOP/WOT events. Would not be (one of) the hottest poker market. But that isn’t where we are. Even that model might be challenged but imo the current model has crossed WAY WAY beyond that gray market loophole. The whole private place argument doesn’t really matter. You could cure that defect but still fail the economic benefit test. And that is before the entire TABC liquor regulation issues.

At the original TCH down south you were charged an hourly seat fee for the tournaments. I played in 3, cashed in 2 and lost money. You essentially needed to win every other tournament to break even.

Nope. You're just talking out yo azz. There is no personal liability period. Many owners infuse funds into their business for various reasons but as an llc assets not involved are out of reach. Yes, once personal funds put into the business are fair game but that's it.

Brutal that the bubble boy gets punished the most.

Bahaha