The "LOLCANADA" thread...again

Lack of work ethic or a sense of entitlement comes to mind. Otherwise, why wouldn't a restaurant manager hire a native over an immigrant?

I haven't called you a racist. Not once. I have pointed out how frequently you talk about Indians, indians at tim hortons, Canada turning into "India 2.0", that "Indians breed like crazy" etc etc etc. I just highlight your quotes. If you think me quoting you makes you sound like a racist, I think you have a you problem not a me problem.

Lol we had a whole conversation about TFW is this amnesia? But ok, it sounds like you no longer have many problems with the TFW program, and acknowledge that many of the jobs it is great for and even for ones you don't like like tim hortons this is 5% of jobs. So SO sorry I didn't say "temporary foreign workers" and only "foreign workers" thank you for that extremely unimportant to my point correction! However, the case can't letting international students spending tens of thousands of dollars in tuition to be blocked from working part time is much smaller than the case against TFW so I'm not sure retreating from the TFW focus is going to help you. Like I can understand the political case against Tim Hortons for using TFW, even if it is 5% only, but the case against international students is basically nonexistent. They obviously should be allowed to work.

You still seem confused. As explained, two things can be true at the same time. There is both consistent labour shortages in low skilled positions in Canada AND high youth unemployment. A lot of these things are lumpy, something totally fine in one town can be terrible in the next. In 2021/2022 there was extremely labour supply crunch in low skilled positions, which is why we got some of the things like the temporary pandemic era easing of restrictions on the TFW program. What I focus more on in challenges in the labour market is actually upwards mobility as opposed to bottom of the barrel jobs. THat is, how hard it is for Canadian youth to take non-academic pathways that start somewhere and make a real career out of so they aren't stuck in low end service jobs their entire life.

then those jobs shouldn't exist and should be paid more. its wage suppression but at least you get a nice salary from all the people buying their way into the country. I don't understand your "its not economic " argument Theirs literally a value to entering Canada and its probably over 100k usd which is way less then a diploma mill. Maybe at the most pristine university's its not economically sound. You can come to my local college for 10k Canadian as an international student.

Buying your way into Canada for 10k is insanely cheap The American EB-5 Immigrant Investor Program needs close to a million. Its actually embarrassing. Were supposed to be an s tier country

Don’t do this Dr. Phil. Have some self respect and just say what you mean.

I accept your apology.

He’s denying reality. He’s denying the very thing MPs from all parties have been debating for months now. No one denies this anymore but apparently Uke. Not surprised.

If it was not "economically feasible" Why do they take out loans to come here? Even if they follow the rules its profitable for them to take out massive loans to come here. When I quit poker for a bit I got a minimum wage job and made friends with a lot of them. Their parents would take out loans to send them here they would all work the max 24 hours but honestly it was not well regulated and alot of them would take extra shifts. They were all super catholic for some reason. i guess that's big in some southern areas .

If you work 24 hours a week on minimum wage thats 1728$ times that by 12 thats 20k minus tax that completely pays for their tuition. They were pretty much all in college and not university so they pay under 20k a year. So they pretty much get free tuition all they have to pay for is the housing which they pool together. They would also all work 40+ hours in the summer because I don't think that 24 hour rule works when schools out. So its more like 30k Cad they make because alot of the lower end college programs are like 4-6 months a year. I guarantee you uke didn't consider this factor.

Its literally economically feasible for the vast majority of them that's why they do it and why their parents support and encourage them to do it. If it did not make economic sense they wouldn't do it... They are not all going to the university of Toronto LMAO. Most go into 1 or two year programs. Of the 10 or so of them I made friends with all are still in Canada. Its clearly worth it for them. Even after subsidizing your shitty university's alot of the harder workers still make more working minimum wage here while in school then they would in India. So they are not super incentivized to even use their degrees so they are happy to get a job at Tim Horton's to stay in the country

When did I say it had to be men? Did you know in the 80's there was a family planning department under Health Canada that funded NGO's to travel the country and teach people about family planning because the government was worried about over population and low resources (I know, LOL at a how horribly wrong they were) is that "mansplaining"?

And the decision to allow 2million+ people to come live in Canada isn't complex? Humans have been having babies since forever, not that complex.

I'm not going to ask her because I don't want to get banned from our-her house, but I'm certain if I bought up declining fertility rates during our lengthy and complex discussion over how many kids, her kids would have a different last name.

But she still would have had kids.... 88% of women under 30 are not.

I ignored the first time you tried this, but it is really rather slippery. Your positions are quite outside of the political consensus. MPs are not debating whether we should block international students from working, are not debating that we should deport millions, and certainly are not posting angsty diatribes about India 2.0 and Indian fertility rates and indians serving you coffee at tim hortons. In contrast, I'm basically a complete centrist on this topic noting the decades long multi-party consensus that say international students are good for Canada, and took totally centrist technocratic positions like that the TFW program should be expanded during labour supply crunch (2021-2022) and then should be tightened when it abated. But this comment of "MPs are debating it and uke is denying it" pretends to switch the roles, as if you're extreme position is the mainstream one and my banal mainstream position is the extreme one.

I agree. You should indeed say what you mean. This weaselly little comments bashing Indians up and down this thread never quite get to what you actually mean....do they?

I was specifically speaking to this idea that international students come to profit while they are at school. Because of the extremely high cost of tuition in the tens of thousands of dollars, and the sky host of housing that we all experience, the idea of someone working 24 hours a week at Tim Hortons making 17 bucks an hour to profit doesn't make a lot of economic sense.

But of course I agree there is MASSIVE economic value to actually working hard, passing all your courses, getting the degree, getting a work authorization, getting a degree in a skilled job, gaining that experience and then either working in canada in a TEER 0-3 level job and going on to hopefully become a permanent resident. Many of my students are under intense pressure because their parents are basically sacrificing everything to send their kid here to pay tuition, and it is up to the kid to master my math classes so they can go on and become an engineer or a scientist and get those high skill jobs in the future. Basically there is a huge incentive to do it "legit", to actually put in the work and get the degree and go to a high skill job, but the incentive to do it just as a scam to send tim hortons money back to your home country while you fail out of courses is a really stupid choice in comparison.

And of course those people that successfully do this provide a lot of economic benefit to Canada as well, far beyond that initial tuition that subsidizes domestic student tuition.

That isn't telling us much:

[QUOTE= AI]

Fertility Intentions: Despite high childlessness in the 20s, 66% of childless women in that age group still say they want to have children eventually, though about 31% either do not want them or remain unsure[/QUOTE]

So 12% (have children) + 66% (plan to have) + 12% (est unsure) = 90% of women in their 20's have or plan to have children.

They literally describe what I mean. I don’t like that we’re importing millions of immigrants from 1 country. Nothing diverse about that.

Again, you think it’s skin colour. It’s not. It’s importing a culture that doesn’t mesh with ours and it’s importing far too many far too quickly.

Now just call me a racist like you want to and we can move on.

we can actually show its worth it for them in math. If they work 30 hours a week over the year (they work 40 hours when not in school which is like half the year or more) thats 26k before taxes. Tuition is 10k so thats 11lk+ So with taxes if they even pay those they have to pay less then 11k in housing on the year. If they rent a house with 8-10 other people there really only paying 300-600 range a month. at 600$ thats 7200. so they have 3k profit. That's obviously going to taxes. so their breaking even on the expensive end of group housing. SO maybe there not making money but they are not losing money... They are pretty much free riding because unlikely india we actually pay low end workers where they would get 50 cents an hour

But where they really make profit is the years after school. They don't have to leave immediately so they can work full time and make a profit which is like 50x what they could make in india. They can break even to get into the country and then in the following years they make way more money then they could in india and send money back home to pay back their parents.
The point is they are not actually helping the Canadian economy they are using wage suppression and low end jobs to pay for their entry into Canada. Ya the horrible Canadian secondary education gets the left over benefit but all that does is push its problems down the road and propping it up temporarily leading to a bigger crash in the future. If it was not worth it for them millions wouldn't come its a great deal for them. We should ask for more

Also a lot of them are just tricked by recruiters and forced to work this hard because they have no choice. alot of the people I worked with were quite depressed about their situation but had no choice other then going home in shame. Two years back the local university college overbooked them and they all went on strike untill they were given living quarters.

In September 2023, about 30 international students, mainly from India, protested and slept in tents outside Canadore College in North bay over a severe housing shortage. Students cited homelessness, high living costs, and inadequate temporary housing from the college. The situation led to temporary hotel accommodation agreements for the students.

If they can't find housing for less then 600$ they get very angie because that's usually their budget theres like a post a day complaining they cant find a place on my local reddit but they can find places that cheap by pooling together. their not exactly flowing money in and any money they take in is overshadowed by the wage suppression they cause so really only the minimum wage employers seem to benefit oh and Professors. Their not all paying for housing in toronto. Infact I imagine very few are going to school in Toronto they go to small towns and move their after if they have cash flow.

Some google searches have international students paying $1,440 per month in rent theres just no way its not counting for multiples. The people I knew would rent a townhouse for that price with 8 other people. One buddy I worked with is a social media star now god bless.(in Malayalam not english)

Ok. Sure, I'll accept that if one takes the minimum of tuition at the cheapest institutions and imagines super cheap mass housing then it might be break even not -EV. At my university, tuition is 35k to 40k for international students, so very -EV. The point is the potential benefit of working hard, doing your degree, getting a skilled job after the degree is VASTLY superior to just failing out of a degree to instead have the opportunity to work at timmies.

Right, I'm not sure we're really disagreeing. Coming to Canada, getting your degree, and working in a skilled job using that degree is an incredibly valuable thing hence the stiff competition and willingness for families to put all their eggs in the basket of coming up with such huge tuition.

Highly trained people who successfully complete Canadian degrees and then work in skilled fields in Canada - aren't these exactly the types of people we WANT in the country, particularly given how population would plummet without some? I think such people DO help the canadian economy - all that work they are doing is economically productive. In contrast say to a refugee or a TFW who violates their terms and stays in Canada despite no skills, it seems that the pathway to PR that getting a Canadian degree is one step on the road is focusing on choosing the right kinds of people.

I'll just caveat that to say my real critique of what happened over the last 5 years is largely actually in provincial education regulation bodies that allowed things like explosions of Conestoga college and other "diploma mill" type places, rightly or wrongly termed. So I'm quite happy if the regulators are significantly more strict. But for the students I see as a professor teaching STEM in a research university, I'm confident this is massively +EV for both domestic students immediately and for the canadian economy in the long term.

I'm a bit confused by this. Like Toronto or at least toronto region more generally is surely the largest concentration of international students? Like it's got the big university UofT, UTM, York etc, and then massive colleges like humbar seneca etc. I think international students cluster around big cities. After they graduate and get their work authorizations they may follow the labour market and have outflows to smaller towns but I think this is very much secondary.

Actually a bunch of news on exactly this issue.

Firstly, this has been my big issue on this front. BC expected the federal reduction in international students would lead to a 18% decline. It lead to a 66% decline. Absolutely massive. I see first hand the negative impact this has on university budgets (and its not like the provinces increased transfers) leading to reduced education quality across the board. It's one of those things where even if you think there should be declines, these should generally be done more "smoothly" over a number of years. -66% is a huge drop in anything YoY.

Secondly, this is where I'll critics of Trudeau era immigration all the credit in the world, auditor general reporting just way way too few of flagged cases of international student non-compliance are being fully investigated. I'm 100% down for spending the money to ensure compliance. I want international students and think someone who comes and studies hard and gets their degree etc are on balance positive, but there has to be compliance.

Thirdly, Carney justifies things as follows (since the auditor general report is mostly on Trudeau era and the very beginning of Carney):

"“You’ve seen temporary worker numbers down by 50 per cent, asylum claims down by a third,” he said. “New foreign student numbers down by 60 per cent since this government came in, and 100 per cent investigations since 2025, which is as long as I’ve been prime minister.”

This is the type of thing I thing most ITT are applauding along with. And maybe the TFW and asylum numbers are good. But I really struggle to see the brag as a good thing that 60% reduction in new foreign students is a good thing. It's tempting to blame all of societal ills like housing and sluggish productivity etc on immigrants and hope that big slashes will just fix things. I don't think it will. I think it is at least a partial misdiagnosis.

na hard disagree. You have to completely burn things down to fix them. humans love their comfort and safety you need to jolt it to improve a real shock to the system. Theres a reason the Renaissance happened after the black death . I get it no one wants short term bad things. but sometimes thats good long term. The education system needs a revamp not a patch job. If it needs to sell out Canada to stay afloat it needs to burn. Its not like the jobs won't exist. God forbid the corporations have to train them a bit themselves from pocket. Some company's used to pay people to go to school believe it or not. The cost shouldn't completely be shifted to the student. In a free market if there's no one paying the university's for training in a field they will train them instead.

Why exactly does the system need a 66% cut in international students and completely burn things down in order to fix it? I don't get the complaint. Like I see the short term bad things - cuts in programs and increased tuition for domestic students who were previously subsidized by international students. I don't quite see the "good long term" things we are allegedly predicting by having substantially fewer highly trained international students integrated into our economy.

Let me put it this way. The classic critique of immigration isn't against immigrants, but about wanting the "best and brightest", those most likely to benefit Canada in the long run. Comparing the various cohorts like temporary foreign workers, refugees, people brought over as family members of PRs, etc, isn't the set of people who a) successfully complete a Canadian degree and then b) work in a high skill job aren't those among the best possible cohorts to be choosing from?

Really? I thought they WERE appealing it. And they should. It should be very clear the legal status so that the future we are crystal clear when it can and can't be used.

because it was a failing system subsidized by international students While that system holds it up it hurts other Canadians outside of your system. I agree we need the best and the brightest. we don't need useless students that might become useful.

The good would be a sustainable system where the employers pay for some of the fee. currently they don't train their own because they don't have too.

Appeal was denied today

Yep. Once upon a time already trained people would come to Canada to work because they were already useful.

Yes employers are in for a huge shock within the decade. Boomers climbed the corporate ladder and then kicked the ladder over. Mentorship, training, apprenticeships, promoting from within, etc. is almost non-existent in the market right now and it's been a race to the bottom for cheap labor. Employers are about to get a big wake up call and it's about time after the last 10-15 years. A friend of mine is looking for a few pipefitters, 2 weeks on/2 weeks off rotation paid flights from anywhere in Canada, can't find anyone.