GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
No just want you to be honest about Jordan's career. It featured plenty of losses and failures that are conveniently brushed under the rug.
Lies
When both guys had help, Jordan never lost, while Lebron was routinely destroyed with big 3's, preseason favorites, and top 5 players as teammates.
The vast majority of Lebron's career shows record losses, sweeps or gentleman sweeps despite all-star teammates, while MJ produced dynasties and goat teams.. It's night and day.
Jordan only lost when he had the league's worst cast from 85-89', and this cast was the only team to win games off the 89' Pistons.. Otherwise, he took the Pistons 7 games in 1990 and then won every other year (except the baseball year).
It's literally the perfect career because he never lost with help (except the baseball year), and he never got upset or locked up.. Meanwhile, Lebron choked and melted down on several occasions, while being swept or record loss with super-teams and top 5 players as teammates.. Lebron's career is a comedy of bad losses despite the most help in the league.
It's still Jordan ainec. If Ray Allen never hits that shot, Draymond Green didn't have a fetish for kicking people in the balls, and the covid bubble never happened, this "debate" would never exist. But for those who actually saw Jordan play, there never was a debate to begin with. Nothing comes close to Jordan. Prime LeBron vs prime Bird is actually a legit debate to me. N
Boom
If Bird doesn't blow out his back doing driveway work. and Magic doesn't get HIV then Jordan probably wins less.
Ifs and buts, candy and nuts.
Magic was runner-up for MVP in 1991 and barely missed a 3-peat in MVP's, so Jordan beat peak Magic.
And we don't need if's or but's with Lebron because he already has many bad losses... This includes historic chokes, meltdowns, or upsets, and also blowout losses with super-teams and preseason favorites - no one has more bad losses than Lebron.
And yet despite the sea of bad losses, there are still many if's and but's because Allen, Kyrie and Silver bailed out Lebron.
Btw, guys like Isiah, Dumars and Rodman were 27-29 years old when Jordan beat them in 91', while KG/Pierce/Allen were 33-35 when Wade led Lebron past his bully in 2011.
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Main reasons why Lebron's career is inferior:
* The goat choke (2011)
* The goat meltdown (2010)
* Many losses with help (all-star teammates, preseason favorites, 1 or 2 seeds, Finals teams)
* Locked up in numerous series
* Carried by teammates in MANY series (outscored by teammates or they were equal-scoring partners)
* Less dominant than MJ (lower PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP)
* Known to be a choker compared to MJ's untouchable goat clutch caliber
* Known to be a flopper, load manager and COLLUDER
* Ring-chaser and colluder, yet still a perennial loser (not capable of dynasty)
It's still Jordan ainec. If Ray Allen never hits that shot, Draymond Green didn't have a fetish for kicking people in the balls, and the covid bubble never happened, this "debate" would never exist. But for those who actually saw Jordan play, there never was a debate to begin with. Nothing comes close to Jordan. Prime LeBron vs prime Bird is actually a legit debate to me. N
Well said!
Though Bird might be insulted that people think Lebron might have been better than him. Bird's a winner, and a closer! Lebron put up good numbers. But if the games on the line you want Bird or Jordan taking that shot.
Love almost goat Jokic getting mad at Mcdaniels for scoring when the game was over. That's the fire i want to see out of Jokic. Watch out this series isn't over just yet.
They prolly lose the next game. But i still love Jokic showing that passion. Just went up in my rooting for people. Don't wake up a giant. He's back! Maybe. I love Mcdaniels for stirring the pot too. Love the chippiness.
If Jokic comes back wins this series, then the title, he's back in my mind on Jordan's heels for the goat. But really I think he needs 2 more titles at least to have a discussion of if he's better than Jordan. But that would only be 3 titles as opposed to Jordan's 6 titles and zero losses? So really Jordan is untouchable.
Fidstar’s ability to view this topic objectively and go on a journey as the years have progressed is to be commended, tbh.
Anyone with a high school education that reads the correspondence between me and Fidstar can see that he's been overtly and obviously destroyed on pretty much any claim that he makes - he's been literally educated time and time again... Ultimately, he fell for a fraud but clings to denial (as everything he says gets proven wrong).
Anyway - his simple point is Jordan “6 - 0” conveniently omits the other 9 seasons he lost before getting to the finals. In the context of a conversation strand where he started by pointing out how Jordan wasn’t under the same type of media scrutiny in the 90’s, and time has passed meaning his failures and losses are forgotten.
Makes sense to me.
Imagine if Jordan lost a series in 7 games while averaging 26 on 35% with 5 TO's.... Jordan's horrific performance would be the #1 reason for the loss, and he would be disqualified from any goat consideration.
This is literally what happened in the 08' ECSF - Lebron's historically-bad performance is the biggest reason for the loss, yet he got a pass..
He also got a pass for 7 turnovers in the 4th quarter of Game 4 that swung the 09' ECF - Lebron turned into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time for that series, and he also guarded Courtney Lee instead of Hedo, while employing 38 ppg of ball-dominance (unwinnable brand of ball).. At that time, he was a simpleton ball-dominator that couldn't shoot, so he lost as a massive favorite - yet he got a pass for it.
He also got a pass for the goat meltdown in 2010, or being the only player in history to shoot 35% with 6 TO's in a series (07' Finals - historically locked up).
Anyway - his simple point is Jordan “6 - 0” conveniently omits the other 9 seasons he lost before getting to the finals. In the context of a conversation strand where he started by pointing out how Jordan wasn’t under the same type of media scrutiny in the 90’s, and time has passed meaning his failures and losses are forgotten.
Makes sense to me.
Jordan never lost with help, except the baseball year, while Lebron regularly lost with preseason favorite super-teams.
That's the difference, aka when both guys had help, Jordan always won while Lebron usually lost.
And Jordan faced more media scrutiny in the 90's because he was taking the game to the level we see now - he was literally the biggest thing in the world..
The expectation was complete dominance, dynasty and perfection, so no one faced more spotlight, pressure, and expectation than Jordan.. For example, Jordan would never be given passes for losing like Lebron does.. aka Nick Anderson's steal is replayed 1000 times and will always get replayed, while Lebron's chokes from 2007-2011 are ignored..
Furthermore, Jordan was knocked for BARELY losing to the Pistons despite bad rosters, while Lebron's preseason favorites and super-teams get passes for losing by the biggest margins ever.
....................................Lebron........... MJ
Lottery............................ 4................. 2
1st Round losses........... 3................. 3
2nd Round losses......... 4.................. 2
Conference finals.......... 2................. 2
Finals losses.................. 6.................. 0
Imagine if Jordan teamed up with Isiah and McHale, yet people were like "can you believe they won the conference again??"..
That's what we do with Lebron and it's obvious BS.. His Finals streak began after he put the top 3 scorers in the conference on 1 team, so it's amazing that he got credit for winning the conference after that..
The charade proves that Finals appearances are conference-dependant, so only winning the Finals matters.. It's good that the West routinely exposed Lebron's Eastern grift.
Btw, guys like Isiah, Dumars and Rodman were 27-29 years old when Jordan beat them in 91', while KG/Pierce/Allen were 33-35 when Wade led Lebron past his bully in 2011.
Fidstar’s ability to view this topic objectively and go on a journey as the years have progressed is to be commended, tbh.
^^^ that's your interpretation.
But the reality is that he frequently posts bs to illicit a response, thereby keeping the thread going.. He's throwing a bone to Lebron fans by keeping a thread going that let's face it - Lebron doesn't deserve.. So there's no journey except maybe downwards.
Btw, guys like Isiah, Dumars and Rodman were 27-29 years old when Jordan beat them in 91', while KG/Pierce/Allen were 33-35 when Wade led Lebron past his bully in 2011.
Isiah was cooked tho (therefore the Pistons were cooked). Probably the oldest 29 year old in nba history. That wrist injury fucked him:
Thomas underwent a groundbreaking wrist procedure performed by Dr. Kirk Watson in early 1991. The surgery involved fusing three bones and a bone graft to address severe wear and tear. Thomas has often stated that this injury, rather than his later Achilles tear, was the true "career-ender" because he never regained full range of motion or his original shooting touch.
The Pistons overachieved to even get to the 91 conference finals. Mark Aguirre basically carried the team the entire playoffs to get that far.
Jordan's the goat, but Isiah is my all time favorite player. The greatest competitor I have ever seen in ANY sport. He ownned Jordan head to head and he's the only player in NBA history to turn Jordan into a whiny bitch.
Isiah was cooked tho (therefore the Pistons were cooked). Probably the oldest 29 year old in nba history. That wrist injury ****ed him:
The Pistons overachieved to even get to the 91 conference finals. Mark Aguirre basically carried the team the entire playoffs to get that far.
Isiah's injury became a factor, but you aren't realizing that it wouldn't make difference if he was completely healthy... The Bulls had become one of the greatest teams ever in 91' and were far better than the Pistons ever were.. It was similar to the 15' Warriors surprising the league with a new brand of ball - that's what the Bulls did in 91' - it was a shock to the league.
It's easy to forget that the Pistons overcame their talent deficit to the Celtics/Lakers by developing a physical brand of ball... Similarly, the Bulls overcame their talent deficit to the Pistons by developing a finesse and spacing brand to offset the Pistons' physicality.. They essentially made the Pistons' brand obsolete, so the Pistons' were never competitive again despite Dumars/Rodman entering their prime in 92' and Isiah having several more all-star years.
Ultimately, the Celtics/Lakers needed super-teams to hang with the Pistons, while Jordan swept them and made them obsolete with just 1 other all-star and a "1-man team" statistical distribution (1-man team).. This clearly demonstrates Jordan's superiority.
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Isiah ownned Jordan head to head and he's the only player in NBA history to turn Jordan into a whiny bitch.
^^^ None of that is true
Jordan massively outplayed Isiah and locked him down H2H, but simply had a much weaker cast.. Infact, the Pistons were prohibitive favorites to 3-peat heading into the 91' season, while the Bulls were considered vastly inferior and a 1-man team.
Isiah ownned Jordan head to head and he's the only player in NBA history to turn Jordan into a whiny bitch.
I know you aren't a Lebron fan, but if Isiah and Bird "owned" Jordan by virtue of having great playoff records against him, then think about how many guys "owned" Lebron, aka Billups, Pierce, Dwight Howard, Duncan, Dirk, Curry, Ant, Booker, Jokic, SGA and more - and many of these were UPSETS, which MJ never had.
In the case of Isiah vs MJ, it's silly to say Isiah owned MJ when Isiah was dominated statistically, locked up defensively BY jordan, and had a far more favored roster to begin with..
Ultimately, history shows that the 86' Bulls won 30 games, so Jordan was forced to carry the weakest team ever in the playoffs... Then this 30-win team lost their top 2 scorers in the off-season (Woolridge & Gervin), so the 87' Bulls had the weakest cast ever.. Jordan still won 40 games by being the 2nd player ever with 3000 points and the 1st player ever with 200 steals and 100 blocks (the GOAT).. Ultimately, Jordan had the weakest casts ever from 85' to 89'.
Yeah, nobody owned Jordan. He had some problems early on with the Pistons, but that was due to the Pistons being a great team, while Jordan's team was bad. Once Jordan broke through in 91 it was game over for the league. Two 3 peats, with the only blemish in between was when he came back mid to late season after his retirement. He wasn't in his prime physical nba playoff shape, and just rust in general, to play like the goat. And the team chemistry was off due to not playing together for so long. He tried to do the impossible and come out of retirement late in the season and still title, if he got past orlando he might have, but that was alot to ask.
But once he broke through in 91 his career was basically pristine. His career as an individual player was pristine anyway, but i mean him making that team pristine to win 6 championships. If he didn't retire prolly woulda been 7 championships in a row, then retiring. Pretty strong argument for goat.
Ifs and buts, candy and nuts.
If the Nuggets can get past minnesota we're gonna have the 4 new age goat-types battling for a chance at the title. Wemby vs Jokic! And SGA vs Luka Doncic. If Luka can go. And Lebron's playing too. Should be fun!
In 1987, Jordan became the 2nd player ever with 3000 points and the 1st player with 200 steals and 100 blocks.
If this version of Jordan had a running mate like Worthy, Larry Nance or anyone of this caliber, he would've easily won titles from 87-91' and certainly gotten past the Bad Boys - Worthy's nickname was the "Bad Boy Killer", so I'm pretty sure that Jordan beats the 88-90' Bad Boys with him instead of Pippen.
Of course, the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a 22/5/5 all-defender to make the 06' Playoffs.. MJ would've 3-peated with that kind of help, and yet those Cavs added all-stars like Mo, Jamison, Ben Wallace and Shaq as well.. They also had better team defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls, aka they had better help on both sides of the ball than Jordan's title teams.
Yay, we're back on the Zydrunas / Mo > Pippen!
I think the real discussion is if Zydrunas is > Cartwright?
I forgot that Cartright was an All Star and a 21/8 guy.
There really was a winning formula that was a lot more than just Jordan. Both Horace Grant and Ron Harper were later part of Jackson's championship Lakers. Harper was a champion 5 times in 6 years, something Jordan never did. In fact, who is the most recent player to match Ron Harper's 5 titles in 6 years?
Lebron's complaining this week about people in barbershops, and everywhere, talking and saying Jordan was better than him. Then saying why do they have to compare us and pin us against each other? LOL! Maybe because you came in the league, put his number on, proclaimed yourself king, then says, paraphrasing in case it's not exact,..."when i beat the warriors is when i knew i was the goat." Lol. Now he wonders how and why people debate this comparing the two? I think he wanted the debate but was hoping they would say him. But now he realizes most say Jordan and think it's not close, and he's not happy about.
Again Lebron, very nice career, and sorry for criticizing you're game as far as being the goat goes, but you brought on the criticism becasue you said you're the goat.
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Jordan's shot attempts, usage and scoring rate increased in the triangle:
Regular Season
85-89' MJ........ 41.5 pts per 100.... 29.5 FGA per 100..... 33.8 usage
90-93' MJ........ 42.0 pts per 100.... 31.1 FGA per 100..... 33.2 usage
Playoffs
85-89' MJ........ 42.9 pts per 100.... 29.7 FGA per 100..... 35.1 usage
90-93' MJ........ 44.4 pts per 100.... 33.4 FGA per 100..... 36.1 usage
Finals
91-93' MJ........ 36.3 PPG...... 35.9 usage
There really was a winning formula that was a lot more than just Jordan. Both Horace Grant and Ron Harper were later part of Jackson's championship Lakers. Harper was a champion 5 times in 6 years, something Jordan never did. In fact, who is the most recent player to match Ron Harper's 5 titles in 6 years?
The triangle won nothing without Jordan or his clone Kobe.
It won 11 of 11 rings with Jordan or his clone, and nothing without.
So the winning formula was having Jordan or his clone to carry the most top-heavy offense ever, and also the most non-dribble offense ever, thereby requiring goat-scoring guards that could dominate the post, aka MJ/Kobe - the GOATS.
Specifically, the triangle got open looks for role players by having superior spacing and ball movement, but the superior ball movement was achieved by removing the primary ballhandler role altogether.. In addition to not having a primary ballhandler role, the triangle wasn't particularly effective at getting open looks for role players, thereby requiring goat scoring burdens and QUICK bailouts of possessions within the offense.. Again, this requires goat-scoring guards that could dominate the post and without ball-domination (score quickly), aka MJ/Kobe - the GOATS.
We can statistically-prove that Phil Jackson was wrong or didn't know what he was talking about - we can prove that he simply luckboxed the goat to carry the most top-heavy and hated offense ever... Specifically, Phil swore to everyone that the triangle would "spread the wealth" and Jordan wouldn't be scoring champ anymore, yet Jordan was scoring champ for 7 of 7 seasons in the triangle and had increases in shot attempts, usage and scoring rate within the triangle (90-93') compared to prior (85-89') - see the stats above.
John Salley?? Horry? Kerr?
Idk
It's invariably a replaceable, low-producing role player that was lucky to have most of their career alongside top 10 all-time players... Think about how rare that is (playing most of your career alongside top 10 guys) - it's quite rare, so viable role players everywhere envy the Horry's, Pippen's, Kerr's and John Salley's of the world
