Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
No, again it was Britain -- or rather it was Lloyd George, for his own reasons -- that put forward the unprecedented Balfour Declaration. The only Jewish member of the Cabinet at the time, Edwin Montagu, Secretary of State for India, was strongly opposed to it. He thought that it was antisemitic in motivation -- Lloyd George was trying to appeal to 'Jewish influence behind the
That being said, that was the choice the Western world made. And it isn't a history that can be undone. Which is why the Palestinian movement of the last 80 years has been so disastrous and destructive, as undoing history through sheer nihilistic stubbornness from a position of weakness, weaponing the empathy of the liberal western world, is the maximalist strategy the movement has aspired to for the last 80 years.
People in my Twitter feed are pointing out the person in the video is a Bosnian Muslim, whose family emigrated to "Palestine" from Europe around the same time as Zionists. So basically unless your worldview is that anyone who is a Muslim is indigenous to anywhere Muslims conquered over the 1400 years of Muslim conquest, this person has less of a claim of indigeneity than even Ashkenazi Jews, who at least have the (very flimsy IMO) claim of being a descendant of people who were thrown out 2000 years ago.
And it isn't a history that can be undone.
ofc it can be. plenty of colonial movements have been undone. you think the natives should accept being dominated by Euro setters but historically, as Nasrallah said, the cost of surrender is greater than the cost of fighting.
ofc it can be. plenty of colonial movements have been undone. you think the natives should accept being dominated by Euro setters but historically, as Nasrallah said, the cost of surrender is greater than the cost of fighting.
For as much history that has been undone, much more hasn’t; which is why Constantinople is now called Istanbul; and you unapologetically live on “stolen land”. Among an infinite number of other examples.
I don’t know if either will happen. But if I had to lay odds whether it was more likely Jews would be violently expelled from Israel or recent Muslim immigrants from Europe, I would choose the latter as more likely to actually happen.
right but the underdog still shows up to play the game. but this isnt a game. people are going to fight for their lives even if the odds are not optimal.
right but the underdog still shows up to play the game. but this isnt a game. people are going to fight for their lives even if the odds are not optimal.
Nah, this is an extremely rare outlier case where extreme social radicalization and massive investment from the outside world subsidizing the resistance is facilitating this. In a more natural environment, the people would have just moved on 80 years ago, and been much better for it.
The closest analogue to the Palestinian situation in 1948 was the millions of Germans who were forced to relocate at the end of WWII when Germany lost territory to Poland and Russia. But no one was willing to subsidize them living in refugee camps on the border of the land they lost, while they demanded return. So they emigrated to what was left of Germany and that was that.
This is what should have happened in 1948. Like the Germans before them, in their failed quest to exterminate their neighbors to create their own ethnostate the Arabs lost land they weren't going to ever get back, and the UN should have facilitated relocating the refugees and that would have been that.
People in my Twitter feed are pointing out the person in the video is a Bosnian Muslim, whose family emigrated to "Palestine" from Europe around the same time as Zionists. So basically unless your worldview is that anyone who is a Muslim is indigenous to anywhere Muslims conquered over the 1400 years of Muslim conquest, this person has less of a claim of indigeneity than even
It gets even richer. Apparently this woman's father, whose parents were from Bosnia, emigrated with his family to England (where he had previously worked) from a part of the West Bank that Israel didnt even reach in 1948. Her family wasn't involved in the Nakba in any way, on top of being European herself. Everything about using her as a prop is fake and contrived.
Nah, this is an extremely rare outlier case where extreme social radicalization and massive investment from the outside world subsidizing the resistance is facilitating this. In a more natural environment, the people would have just moved on 80 years ago, and been much better for it.The closest analogue to the Palestinian situation in 1948 was the millions of Germans who were
no its more like all the Germans who colonized Namibia around 1900 and committed untold atrocities and genocides on the natives. they are still there. Inshallah they get sent packing just like the Jewish settlers will.
It’s certainly possible that the earliest Zionist leaders envisioned war as an acceptable possibility, but their primary method for obtaining land initially was to try to appeal to the Ottoman Empire and emigrate to the Palestinian region peacefully, with the consent of the Ottomans. Indeed, if they could have established a state without any war they surely would have.
I was commenting on the quotes you chose to buttress your point, not on the film.
no its more like all the Germans who colonized Namibia around 1900 and committed untold atrocities and genocides on the natives. they are still there. Inshallah they get sent packing just like the Jewish settlers will.
The Germans in Namibia in 2026 are guilty of the sins of their ancestors from 1900? Well then Muslims are guilty of innumerable sins from the times of the Prophet. It’s such a weird way of looking at history.
Remarkable collection of quotes from Israel's founders about how they initiated the 1948 war to expel Palestinians.
The Story of the Creation of Israel.
A sample:
Many more.
And Arab Legion announced May 15, 1948 that they were going to war because of the ongoing attacks on Palestinian villages.
Why have the Palestinians not accepted defeat? So many other nations were conquered and accepted defeat. Many of them went on to rebuild or relocate and create a better life. This hatred and anger towards Israel is only creating more suffering. The ability to accept what is, is a sign of emotional intelligence. What type of life is it to always play the victim and live your life as a refugee? The Palestinians are for a lack of a better word, poor losers. It’s time to move on. They need to teach their kids to be doctors or scientists instead of terrorists. They need to spend their money on building infrastructure instead of rockets and tunnels. The Palestinians need a paradigm shift.
The Germans in Namibia in 2026 are guilty of the sins of their ancestors from 1900? Well then Muslims are guilty of innumerable sins from the times of the Prophet. It’s such a weird way of looking at history.
A bit confusingly, Victor, beneficiary of numerous and notorious acts of colonial ethnic cleansing, dispossession and appropriation in North America, says he has no intention of vacating the indigenous people's land that he's squatting on, because he would find it personally inconvenient.
List of experts and organizations that call it genocide:
▪️The International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS), the world's leading academic organization in the field of Genocide: https://lnkd.in/epprvkQf
▪️Omer Bartov, eminent Israeli-American historian of the Holocaust considered one of the world's leading authorities on genocide: https://lnkd.in/eqnRFntY
▪️Amos Goldberg, Israeli historian and acclaimed Genocide and Holocaust scholar: https://lnkd.in/emRR4EkS
▪️Raz Segal, Israeli historian, Prof. of Holocaust and Genocide Studies and the Study of Modern Genocide: https://lnkd.in/e9qj49Aa
▪️Avi Shlaim, esteemed Israeli historian, Emeritus Professor of International Relations at the University of Oxford: https://lnkd.in/eMHa4Afy
▪️Lee Mordechai, prominent Israeli academic and Prof. of history at The Hebrew Uni of Jerusalem:
https://lnkd.in/epJG92UU
▪️Maung Zarni, prominent genocide scholar and Nobel Peace Prize nominee:
https://lnkd.in/ed-96jqD
▪️William Schabas - one of the world's leading legal scholars on genocide: https://lnkd.in/e8iAGazE
▪️Richard Falk, Chairman of Euro-Med Monitor's Board of Trustees: https://lnkd.in/eNFM7w3i
▪️Rob Howse, distinguished professor of international law, New York Uni: https://lnkd.in/esbvWMF2
▪️Prof. Michael Lynk, former UN Special Rapporteur on Human Rights: https://lnkd.in/eATaJWbr
▪️Seymour Hersh, legendary Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist: https://lnkd.in/eahxvbK2
▪️Francesca Albanese, U.N. Rapporteur and distinguished lawyer & academic:
https://lnkd.in/ecWiGpqC
▪️Craig Mokhiber, human rights lawyer, former Director of the NY Office for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights: https://lnkd.in/duj8usss
▪️UN Special Rapporteur Reem Alsalem : https://lnkd.in/ezb_5w2x
▪️Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention: https://lnkd.in/en8i-WQ4
▪️UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory: https://lnkd.in/ergJb4-u
▪️The University Network for Human Rights, the Intl. Human Rights Clinic at Boston Uni School of Law, the Intl. Human Rights Clinic at Cornell Law School, the Centre for Human Rights at the Uni of Pretoria, and the Lowenstein Human Rights Project at Yale Law School:
https://lnkd.in/eiMKZH7H
▪️Amnesty International : https://lnkd.in/eSgMME6n
▪️Human Rights Watch: https://lnkd.in/eA8aB8uG
▪️International Court of Justice (ICJ): https://lnkd.in/eg7U-QeE
▪️European Center for Constitutional & Human Rights: https://lnkd.in/efA-m2Hv
▪️UN Human Rights Report: https://lnkd.in/eK3Eb6Qf
▪️Jewish Voice for Peace Rabbinic Council: https://lnkd.in/eBtjdA7C
Read their statements and reports here : https://lnkd.in/exFs-zHh
the weird thing about that list is that I dont see any Palestinians, Arabs, or Global South citizens. its all Westerners and a lot of Jews. on the one hand, it shows how blatant this whole genocide has been that so many Westerners call it genocide. on the other, it shows suppressed the voices of the victims have been.
the weird thing about that list is that I dont see any Palestinians, Arabs, or Global South citizens. its all Westerners and a lot of Jews. on the one hand, it shows how blatant this whole genocide has been that so many Westerners call it genocide. on the other, it shows suppressed the voices of the victims have been.
Maybe there's no such thing as a Palestinian scholar.
But seriously folks: A Palestinian scholar would be viewed as 'biased.'
List of experts and organizations that call it genocide:▪️The International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS), the world's leading academic organization in the field of Genocide: https://lnkd.in/epprvkQf▪️Omer Bartov, eminent Israeli-American historian of the Holocaust considered one of the world's leading authorities on genocide:
I think what has happened in Gaza is simply a tragic bi product of a war.
This is certainly a thorough list but I’m sure I could produce a similar list of those who don’t think this is a genocide.
Why isn’t there more talk about the attempted genocide on the Jews in Israel on Oct 7th? Is it simply all about who has killed the most? Hamas named this attack Al Aqsa Flood for a reason. They wanted to appeal to Muslims emotions and hope they would rise up to kill Jews. Hamas hoped for Hezbollah to attack from the north. Their intent was to inflict much more damage than they did. Hamas no question attempted a genocide. Israel simply struck back in self defense.
Maybe there's no such thing as a Palestinian scholar.
But seriously folks: A Palestinian scholar would be viewed as 'biased.'
I get you are joking about the first part. obv Palestinians are some of the most educated people on the planet. Gaza ofc is far more educated than the USA.
but I am confused if you are serious about the second part? like, victims should not be taken seriously bc they are biased against their tormenters?
as a further aside, if anything, I think Palestinians are not biased and hateful enough. but ofc that is probably due to my Western secular upbringing. the Islamic men of God have more grace and forgiveness than I could ever comprehend.
I get you are joking about the first part. obv Palestinians are some of the most educated people on the planet. Gaza ofc is far more educated than the USA. but I am confused if you are serious about the second part? like, victims should not be taken seriously bc they are biased against their tormenters? as a further aside, if anything, I think Palestinians are not biased a
Yes, I was obviously joking about first part.
Of course Palestinian scholars`*should* be taken seriously. But a typical response to a Palestinian think-tank saying Israel is committing genocide would be, "Of course they WOULD say that."
So-called 'hostile witnesses' are often more persuasive to the average person.
For example, an article from Cal State Northridge claiming that conservative scholars are discriminated against would generally be taken more seriously a prior than one from Liberty University asserting the same thing.
In informal logic it's called the 'Circumstantial Ad-hominem Fallacy.
Of course Palestinian scholars`*should* be taken seriously. But a typical response to a Palestinian think-tank saying Israel is committing genocide would be, "Of course they WOULD say that."
So-called 'hostile witnesses' are often more persuasive to the average person.
For example, an article from Cal State Northridge claiming that conservative scholars are discriminated against would generally be taken more seriously a prior than one from Liberty University asserting the same thing.
In informal logic it's called the 'Circumstantial Ad-hominem Fallacy.
although I hate to make the comparison anymore (mainly bc its demeaning to the victims of radical Jewish violence), there is ofc that specific event where this is not true.
--Speaking of Islamic men of God, an interesting eugenic program antidote of the 1950s Muslim slave trade. A Greek businessman operating a brothel in Djibouti realized that if he took the best looking children conceived from a combination of a slave (normally black) concubine and John, he could raised the half-caste breeds (the terminology used at the time) and sell them around age 13 at a premium to Yemeni and Saudi slave traders. Although you would think most of the demand would be for girls, apparently there was quite an appetite in the Arab world for child concubine slave boys.
--My understanding is this is still the case, and the Maghreb region especially is notorious as the place to go for gay adult men throughout the world to find male child sex prostitutes.
Also germane to this topic, the deeply devout Islamic men of God who perpetuated the Bataclain terrorist attack in 2015 are documented as mutilating the genitals of numerous victims, male and female. Similar to reports made about the genital mutilations perpetuated by the deeply devout Islamic men of God who participated in the October 7th massacres.
Interesting confluence.
Bataclain terrorist attack in 2015
committed by Western backed Salafi IS cells. the same people that heroes like Suleimani and Hezbollah fought for years. the same people that untold thousands of Muslims died fighting.
you cant say the same for radical Jewish or Western terrorists. the same people that murder innocents all over the world are almost never fought from within. thats why the Muslims are more moral than us. they fight against their terrorists to defend the ideals of Islam. Jews dont take up arms against Israel. and almost no Whites take arms against our terrorist govt.
