How Scummy is This Move?
1/2. I'm not involved in the hand. V in this hand I guess fancies himself a pro. He plays about 10/8/1. Just a damn nit. He's mid 20's and I played with him for 8 hours and he never said a word.
In this hand, it gets to the river with about $300 in the pot. The board is AK995 no flush. I'll call the other player Hero (again not me). Hero checks the river with about $80 behind. V jams. Hero says "I guess I can't fold" and tables his hand AK. Dumb move, but it is what it is. Dealer only hears fold and quickly mucks Hero's cards and starts pushing pot to V. V quickly slides his cards into the muck before the dealer can.
Hero says, no I call. They call the floor, look at the tapes. Somebody asks V if he beat AK and he shakes his head no. Floor while waiting on the tapes to be reviewed asks V if he is willing to split the pot back to hero. V says no. Of course no remedy can happen so V keeps the pot.
I was kind of furious at the scummy behavior. Am I right to be or is this just tough luck on Hero for being unclear with his action.
Besides, one of the biggest/best known angles relies on being able to retrieve cards in the face of action. UTG raises, two late callers. Flop comes out, UTG bets, next player goes into the tank. Wants to call but is clearly worried about the 3rd player yet to act after them. 3rd player pretends to
He is not facing action until action is on him. It is likely an angle and is definitely scummy, but since action is not on him not a fold (IME.)
I agree that even when acting in turn and cards released forward, if player retrieves them, seldom ruled a fold. But this is precisely why I hate 99% of the time when a dealer intentionally does a slow muck to give player a chance because even though those should be a fold by rule (and it is the actual rule) floors will often keep the hand alive (and dealers not calling the floor are even more likely to do so).
But the actual rule in almost every room where I know the rule is that just like saying fold (in turn) is a binding fold, cards forward released is by rule a fold. But this is a rule that is often not enforced.
I will say that it is dealers who 'over rule' this by returning cards and never calling floor. The good ones will still muck the cards but do so in such a manner that the player can't really get upset. A higher % of floors get this correct than for dealers; possibly because dealers have different motivation.
Besides, one of the biggest/best known angles relies on being able to retrieve cards in the face of action. UTG raises, two late callers. Flop comes out, UTG bets, next player goes into the tank. Wants to call but is clearly worried about the 3rd player yet to act after them. 3rd player pretends to
So you think the rules should help to enable angle shots?
Regardless, it's generally not considered that you are facing action until it is your turn. That's why the action can be reconsidered if it changes before it gets to you.
Don't get me wrong, if cards go forward when facing action and then are retrieved, it should really be looked at skeptically and the floor should almost always be called (with warnings and penalties in play), but it isn't a dead hand in most places.
IMO it (a hand thrown forward when facing action, particularly when there isn't an extenuating circumstance like a player thinking he has the last live hand) is dead (or should be according to room rules) in many/most rooms. Whether a dealer will make a stand about it, or the floor is willing to upset a player to make that ruling, may be another matter.
I should add that TDA does not have any rules or guidance on this issue.
So you think the rules should help to enable angle shots?
Regardless, it's generally not considered that you are facing action until it is your turn. That's why the action can be reconsidered if it changes before it gets to you.
Rules basically always enable angle shots. That's the entire point of the angle. To do something that looks like the angler isn't doing. Almost every angle I have ever seen requires a Dealer and/or Floor ruling and it will basically always favor the intention of the angler.
There is only one angle I know of that is against the rules and the rule violation doesn't kill or affect the hand it just results in a penalty after the hand is over (if the other player doesn't act). Its when a player turns over his cards like he is making a call (sometimes even saying "OK") to see if the other player mucks his hand or turns over a winner (at which point he will fold and act like he was folding the whole time). The angler ultimately will have to call or fold if the opponent knows enough not to act and that is when the penalty will come up (in a tournament at least).
we can't discount the possibility that the mucker was trying to angle here
he knew he had a loser but figured declaring a winner was mucked may get him the pot
Rules basically always enable angle shots. That's the entire point of the angle. To do something that looks like the angler isn't doing. Almost every angle I have ever seen requires a Dealer and/or Floor ruling and it will basically always favor the intention of the angler.
There is only one angle
I think you missed the point.
He was basically justifying the rule by saying that it allows a common angle.
IMO that is a good argument against having the rule, not in favor of it.
I think you missed the point.
He was basically justifying the rule by saying that it allows a common angle.
IMO that is a good argument against having the rule, not in favor of it.
I don't think he was justifying the rule. I think he was describing what in his experience as a dealer is the rule.
In most places I have played when a player tosses his hand face down forward when facing a bet the dealer will collect it and put it in the muck. If the player reaches out to it and brings it back it can sometimes be allowed especially when nobody else has acted (I hate when it is because I consider it a fold).
However when a player tosses his hand face up when facing a bet on the river or an all in bet in most places the dealer will ask if it is a call or fold. In this case the dealer heard "fold" not "I can't fold" and mucked the hand. If Villain hadn't mucked his hand my guess is that Hero would have been allowed to call after explaining what he had said. Given that Villain mucked his cards (which to me is the angle here) the Floor ruled that Hero had folded (which I find ridiculous). In general this is a borderline situation especially if Hero has a weak hand. But Hero had top two and said he wasn't folding. Which Villain probably heard even though the Dealer didn't.
Hero made several mistakes here including saying the word Fold. He also didn't say "I call" before Villain mucked his cards. Because Hero had tabled his hand if he had said "I call" before Villain mucked, he probably would have been allowed to have top two and Villain would have had to either show the winner or muck the loser (in which case Hero would have won the pot).
