2023-2024 NC/LC THREAD

Well you still have to balance your check/calling range against your check/raising range. And this is already in a node when you are making a deviation by not having any leads, where the pfr gets to exploit you if they want to and all you get in return is perceived simplicity.

I think it was stox who observed that if a player bets 100%, then we should check 100% in order to exploit their imbalance. However if they start checking appropriately then we are incentivized to develop a leading range. Well what if they start checking far too much? Then we would be crazy to keep following the mantra of “always check to the pfr” just to simplify the game tree

I'm not saying never donk in any situation, I'm saying doing so creates challenges beyond having a balanced donking range.

Although in some spots, I would agree with never donk and cbet 100 percent range.

God awful might have been extreme. I used to do it all the time myself until someone started donking into me on a regular basis. At first I thought it was bad for him to do it but then I realized how much it annoyed me and have since incorporated it into my own game. I mostly just think it’s a very underused weapon in the games i frequent.

My existence isn’t that bad lol. But I’ve reached a point where I really struggle to find the motivation to play the hours I need to play to make the money I need to make. I got divorced last year and it absolutely cratered me financially. I should probably explore other options but I have no idea what I could tolerate and make good money. I don’t want to get back into the business side of poker. Winning a bracelet would help lol.

I certainly don't think you should concentrate on winning bracelet.

Didn't you say you lost a ton at the WSOP and had a huge winning streak at LHE cash games? It's likely not just the way your luck ran, those two things take far different skill sets, and it's pretty obvious which one you have. I don't know why you would ever play a tournament unless it's super fun for you and you have money to burn (neither of which seem to be true).

Not focused on it lol. Just saying it would help. Last year was a disaster and I put more of myself at risk than I should have. I can sell huge pieces of myself if I want to for the whole series. I’ve done well in tournaments for my career considering the level of volume I’ve put in - and yes, I’m aware I’ve run well above expectation.

But yes, my focus is on playing cash for now. I don’t plan to stay for the whole wsop again this year but I certainly won’t be skipping it entirely.

TDK - I am posting this publicly to maybe help others, not to be a jerk - I think you are very stuck in that allure of poker that causes many many people to be stuck being a small stakes pro. You feel you are just one good run away from living a very fun life with plenty of money and freedom, but it is quite hard to get out of the small / mid stakes these days as a pro. You have to make a lot at the tables just to pay life expenses and break even, rake isn't getting lower, games aren't getting softer, and if you do manage to go on a good run and move up, you are going to find tougher opposition too. I see a lot of guys in that situation at my home casino, some of them seem happy doing it, most of them seem pretty miserable and play 60 hours a week and drink a lot. Going out and doing some non poker job seems scary and awful, but the people I know that go that route by and large seem to feel pretty good when they start seeing some steady income roll in and get away from the poker dream / mirage. Poker is a great side hustle, its not a great job.

ps: if you want to play mix games, you need to surround yourself with some better players to learn from. Almost every pacific NW mix game player is really technically bad and I think its cuz they just all see how each other play and think that's "standard"

I agree with DD on this. It's easy to think poker is an easier lifestyle than a corporate job when you clear a big bet an hour at 20/40 or 40/80 but it seems to me like playing as a pro is a brutal proposition unless you can crush 75/150+ and are comfortably bankrolled for the limit.

If you have a daytime job that covers your bills, you can still play weekends and evenings which are much better times to play than weekday daytime games that tend to be littered with pros and wealthy retirees who are still grizzled poker veterans and can still be reasonably tough to deal with.

And the stress is much reduced because you don't have to keep winning to survive. You don't have to take money out every month to cover your bills and expenses and if you're talented, you should be able to move up in limits much faster by re-investing 100 percent of your winnings into your bankroll. Assuming, of course, you can avoid bad habits like drugs, sports betting and expensive women that have been known to derail some of us. And, if you run bad or are just generally burned out from playing, you can take a break whenever and come back when your passion for the game returns. Not only will playing be more enjoyable than when you have to play, but you'll probably play better when you're not stressed about keeping up with your bills.

People talk about the freedom of setting your own hours but big deal if you still have to grind 50+ hours per week to survive.

I will grant that in the current economic climate, it is unlikely you will immediately find a 9-5 to cover any kind of comfy lifestyle if you've gambled for a living for the past decade, but it is possible to live for quite cheap by making sacrifices like taking on roommates, taking public transportation instead of driving, etc. And, while entry level jobs don't pay much, there is a huge dearth of competent people in just about every industry. If you are sharp enough to win at poker and show yourself to be reliable and competent, it shouldn't be long before you can demand more money. Good employees are tough to come by.

No offense taken. Just truth.

My biggest problem has always been I don’t play enough.

Since my first full year as a pro in 2017 I’ve only topped 160 hours in a month 11 times. Meanwhile, I’ve come in under 120 hours in a month 24 times (2020 excluded) and under 100 11 of those times. When I’m doing really well I get lazy and complacent and take extra time off. When I’m doing really poorly I struggle to find the motivation to play. When I was married, having that extra stable income and premium health insurance made a huge difference. Post-divorce not only did I have to hand over half my bankroll, but my monthly expenses have somehow gone up and it’s caught up to me. Then I followed all that up with my worst year as a pro.

I never really toyed with the idea of getting a job until last year. I’m open to it. But it’s hard to imagine finding something that pays as well as poker. Post-pandemic, my hourly in my three main games is just under $60. My hourly in 20/40 is $93. My hourly in 20/40 at Fortune is even higher. Yes, I know those last two numbers are absolutely bloated by run good but I’ve always been around a 1.5 BB/hr player in LHE so I think $60 is a good baseline. I just don’t know what I could do that pays like that. I’m not quite desperate enough to go searching for something, but I’m open to the idea of a career switch for sure.

I mean that is reasonable and I can see you've thought about this. I guess what I would say is that is a little bit the trap I am talking about. It is unlikely there is a job that you would enjoy doing that will pay more than $60 an hour ***right away*** but there are many many jobs that might start at $25 an hour, and when you show you are talented it goes up very quickly. There is almost no chance your hourly rate at LHE is going to increase in the next few years, and there's a good chance that it could go down for many different reasons.

Anyway, we've met a couple times, you seem nice, you could do a lot of things, though laziness and complacency will be a problem in any industry. I'll hop off the soap box 😀

Find a new wife that open to your situation probably a lot more +ev than anything you will do atm beside crushing lhe at a high level. the chance of you finding a job that satisfying compare to what you think you make at poker is going to be tough unless you get complete beat down for a long time and complete broke. otherwise you always going to be itching to play poker.

Thanks DD. You’ve always been critical but fair with me. I probably value your input more than anyone in poker and root for you heavily.

DonJuan, I got myself a 25yo stunner instead. She has five jobs now (all extremely part time) and none of them have benefits. I also don’t have a fair financial balance with her yet - I probably pay for 65-75% of our expenses and we live together. I also heavily funded her 3+ month trip to NYC last year and she’s barely begun to pay me back. I’m very attracted to her and really enjoy spending time with her so it’s also easy for me to skip out on playing if she wants to me to stay home when she’s off. This probably sounded like a thinly veiled brag but in truth I would certainly be in a better spot financially if I had just stayed single after getting divorced.

Before the recent burst of inflation, I always said that you need to make $100/hour to really be happy as a pro. Post-inflation, I would say more like $150/hour. That is why I am busting my ass trying to get good at NLHE... much higher ceiling. It's possible to make $150/hour playing LHE, but you need to be a Bonition endboss like DonJuan or be one of the best players in LA or some such.

"Grinders" are usually miserable in my experience. Trying to live in LA while making $60/hour at Commerce 40/80 is suicide-inducing.

And one more point... I really don't think it is possible to efficiently and happily grind 40+ hour weeks. Your level of play is going to decline. You're going to grind non-premium hours. You're not going to be putting in the 15-20 hours of study that you need. You need to be fresh, relaxed, and happy when you play. Anything less is horribly inefficient imo.

So let's suppose you play 30 hours/week for 45 weeks of the year at $150/hour... that's just over 200k/year which used to be a lot of money, but isn't anymore. I argue that the vast majority of regs who aren't hitting those types of numbers or efficiently moving in the right direction are probably miserable. I'm not talking about young kids fresh out of college (who btw don't play LHE anyway). I'm talking about 10+ year veterans like most us posting in this forum.

I told myself don't go into the LC/NC thread because it's depressing. I figured I would see what everyone is talking about these days. Now I'm depressed.

In other words rec players like me stay winning in life even though crushers are winning in the game

Life isn't about keeping score, it's about making the most of each moment.

Life is about living selflessly and putting others first. Every time I impart my timeless wisdom unto this thread, I march one step closer to the kingdom of heaven.

That sounds more like self abandonment. Both one's own desires and the desires of others should be considered when decision making and win-win solutions should be sought.

I was just trying to bring some levity to the thread :( carry on with doomposting.

at the end of the day I love poker pros and think they are awesome for the most part. the people at the table that piss me off the most are almost never the pro players.

Is this from the Amarillo Slim book?

It was from a personal moment of clarity I had in 2017. I realised it was important to listen to people to gain an understanding of their perspective, especially people with different conclusions to me. Until that point, I had entered many conversations with the intent of proving my previously held supposition to be true but from that point forward, I entered conversations with the intent of understanding the perspective of the other. Doing so is not only compassionate towards that other but beneficial to myself. Poker and life are games of incomplete information and the more relevant information one can gain, the better positioned one is for success. Early on, people were disclosing much relevant information although they have since become significantly more guarded.

It won't add levity to tell a bunch of poker pros that you as an amateur are winning the game of life versus them. There are benefits to other professions, as have been discussed in this thread, but that doesn't mean a poker pro is incapable of fulfillment. In poker, the sky is the limit as far as stakes, so while many grinders may live unfulfilling lives glued to the table, upper tier talent such as death donkey, unguarded, and others who monitor this thread have no real cap on their lifetime earning potential. If the right fish or group of fish appear and are willing to play big enough, they could become some of the wealthiest people in the world. In fact, in a futuristic novel I am authoring, a poker pro does become the wealthiest person in New York and New York becomes the wealthiest city in the world, following a significant collapse in the near future.

Alright big man appreciate your perspective. Let me know when the wish fulfillment fantasy er I mean book comes out. I’m sure it will be a best seller.

New York already is the wealthiest city in the world 👀

Ok

At least this thread has life again!

Let's keep it going.