Israel/Palestine thread

People hopelessly encouraging Palestinians to run into a wall of spikes for some perverted sense of justice is exactly why this conflict didn’t end with Arafat.

They're usually right. I think Dunyan has seen me describe some things I like and wish were true and assumed I think they are the way of the world or something. Bad and wrong people win all the time. That doesn't make them right.

Jewish people going back? I thought they were 70% born in Israel? Surely you can't be referring to where people's ancestors were from?

And of course it's feasible for Jewish people to migrate to the UK/US/Canada/Australia/Russia/Europe etc etc.

even the afrikaaners weren’t ethnically cleansed from south africa after apartheid ended. It says a lot about how people view Jews that this is even remotely considered a possibility.

They're usually right for most of the time. Then they are very wrong and a different lot get the guns.

What's true is those who make the rules, get the big guns

Of course there was Jewish diaspora immigration from other countries. The far right of Israel encourages Jewish people to move to Israel. The question isn’t whether people have moved to Israel, the question is whether Israel has a right to determine its own immigration policy and whether those immigrants should then be forcibly removed. These sorts of ideas of how the conflict should be resolved are untenable.

Not sure I understand your point. I'm positive there's plenty of antisemitism in Romania though I haven't been there. I've been to Poland though, and while there's antisemitism there, there are also Jews who aren't currently being murdered.

There are plenty of people who want to murder Jews in Los Angeles too though. 68 of them were just charged this month.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-cdca/pr/68-...

Ok, so if Turkey would be the most likely party to over-run them does that change the point at all? Does Rojava exist without US military alliances? Given that I am sure you think the US should leave the region (go ahead and correct this is I am wrong) the logical outcome of this is that countries like Rojava dont get to exist anymore.

The irony of bringing up Turkey at all, is that whatever you think of Israel's actions over the last 80 years; Turkey is clearly worse on every dimension. And the fact the world is so hyper critical of Israel and so indifferent of Turkey indicates that broader geopolitics, and not any first principle concerns for human rights or the Palestinian people, are what is driving criticism of Israel.

Ok I must have misunderstood your point. I thought you were saying that Jews leaving Israel should happen in order to achieve peace.

If Israel elected a Dove government and all the Jews and Arabs in Israel/Gaza/WB got along peacefully, but Israel would no longer be the tip of the western military spear in the ME, the USA would coup that government and put Netanyahu back in power.

It has nothing to do with paranoia about how people see Jewish people, but what's possible with the one state solution and equal rights of South Africa that isn't possible when you hang onto apartheid as in Israel.

And it wasn't only Afrikaaners who were the white overlords in South Africa. There were people descended from other Europeans and some Jewish people in positions of power too, some of whom left for Israel.

LOL. Yes, the Jews of the San Fernando Valley can breathe a sigh of relief that "the Peckerwood" drug gang got busted. That was sarcasm by the way. Like everywhere else in Southern California, the Jews in San Fernando Valley (and there are a lot of them) have absolutely nothing to worry about from "white supremacist" organizations targeting them, and not a single Jew living there is any safer after this drug bust than before.

I just looked at some pictures and seems like most of the gang members are Hispanic. The "white supremacist" angle is actually pretty specious at best, as it seems to just be that they do drug business with the Aryan Brotherhood. And they probably aren't any more antisemitic than any other local drug gang.

David did a thought experiment as he is wont to do which did not very accurately reflect the current situation in I/P. Whatever I said regarding that shouldn't be taken as what I think should happen in the real world.

I don't think Jews should have to leave Israel. The Israeli government just should not have killed so many people and destroyed more than half the buildings in Gaza. I was suggesting that IF someone only had the choice to die, kill a lot of innocent people (this is a complicated discussion here open to pretty much endless thought experiment variations) or leave, then they should leave.

Moral: the only way to kill him is to kill others who are innocent.

Practical and moral: killing those innocents is found out and it results in many other people having a 5% chance of wishing to kill me.

I'm tempted to suggest that this is you sticking up for Nazis. Anyway, I think this guy is a threat to Jews in Los Angeles.

eta: image - whatever, it's one of those guys with swastika tattoos. Why on a post does this interface want to upload a file and then in an edit it wants a link?

If we look back at peace agreements between Israel and Palestine, I’m sure we’ll see that the US has consistently sabotaged those agreements and not attempted to facilitate them correct? As well with the rest of the Middle East?

I know this might surprise you but the US has a huge interest for peace in the Middle East to develop.

Many of us would rather leave where we live than kill lots of inncocent people. That includes many who would rather risk being killed then leave.

Others are very different

Its been answered many times. Not sure why things that happened in Algeria or Iraq or even Lebanon have anything to do with the theft of Palestinian land and life by Israel.

No. Bill Clinton really did everything he could do get a 2 state solution. And he mostly blamed Arafat for it not happening. Although I am sure Bill Haywood would argue it was all Israel's fault (as he is wont to do).

You’d think someone so partisan on the side of the Palestinians would understand people don’t want to be kicked off their land.

I'm not partisan and I do understand. txs

I wouldn't want to leave and I wouldn't join hamas/etc. Like most palestinians
Same if I was Israeli. I wouldn't want to leave and I very much hope I would refuse to join the IDF (or refuse to take part in non defensive operations). Of course it's very easy when we're not tested and I have great sympathy with those who get dragged along.

Not wanting to be kicked off your land but wanting others kicked off theirs is fascism.

Or as Dunyain would have it, "having the bigger guns".

You'd think so based on the way these arguments go online where everyone discusses things like ancestry and what happened in 1948 or 1967 over and over, but a lot of people aren't so "partisan on the side of the Palestinians" other than they are upset that probably over 100000 people have been killed and definitely millions have had their normal lives taken away from them.

I condemn all settlements and have done many times. Guess what though, you don’t get to lose territory in a war you started and then demand to go back to land your great grandparents lived on as a condition for peace. There have been many many many offramps for peace not accepted by the Palestinians.

We can have historical counterfactuals about how Israel wouldn’t have really accepted these peace agreements, bur guess what? We’ll never know because it was the Palestinians rejecting these agreements.

Are you arguing the Palestinian Islamist organizations are fascist? Isn't their exact objective to keep the land they do have and kick the Israelis off their land? I dont disagree by the way if that is your argument.