Israel/Palestine thread

You're making the mistake again of thinking that hostilities started in October 2023.

Two state solution.

Fascist is kinda something in particular that they may or may not fit into well, but of course Islamist groups are right-wing.

first off, you dont condemn the settlements otherwise you would not have written this post. or really any post in this thread.

second off, you are factually incorrect on who "started the war".

Are they upset about the 100k plus people who have been displaced in North Israel because Lebanon is constantly launching missiles at them for a year? Are they upset that Hamas plants munitions in hospitals, mosques, schools, apartments? Are they upset that Hamas captured 200+ Israelis and tortured them for over a year, executing many when Israel is closing in on their location instead of just leaving them there?

It’s very sad that many innocent people have died, but people that want peace don’t encourage Hamas to keep fighting like certain people in this thread have. Hamas had so many opportunities to surrender. There was even a temporary ceasefire that they broke because they wanted to continue a war they knew they could never win.

We can’t create perverse incentives to just throw civilian after civilian at an opposing force in the hopes the international community will step in to give you what you want.

On reflection it seems to me you're equating the Palestinian freedom movement with ISIS (who I think were fascist) because they're both Muslim....which is pretty Islamophobic of you.

If leaving eliminated the risk, my hypothetical no longer applies. And my hypothetical assumed not just that he wanted you dead but that he would kill you if he could. I was more strict than your original :

"There is no unlimited right to kill innocent children of people who want you dead if they don't have the means to do it."

And in normal non rigorous language that would mean that there IS that Unlimitied right if they do have the means. Is that what you meant? Because if so, you were including those who wanted you dead but might not kill you even if they could.

I got fancy with my question but all I was really saying is that if you are sure that someone wants you dead, especially for no good reason, your contention that you should contemplate whether he can pull it off is silly. Any chance above miniscule entitles you to do something to bring the chances to zero, whether that be leaving, killing him, or hiring a pacifist supermodel to pretend to love him.

You don’t get to have it both ways that “x amount of people have died in this war” and then also say “oh by the way this war didn’t start on Oct 7th”. I hate this semantic game that people play. Hostilities during the Civil War didn’t start at Fort Sumpter either, that’s clearly not what anyone means by the start of a war.

Interesting that you brought up ISIS, as Israel just feed a sex slave that was originally captured by ISIS but was being held in Gaza where she continued to be held by the people there even after her Gazan owner died. Given that Gazan society under Hamas is extremely conservative Sunni Islamist like ISIS, perhaps not so surprising this happened. Thankfully Israel was able to free her and reunite her with her family though. Point for the good guys.

you think Palestinians have the right to kill these people?

ofc you dont.

Aren’t you the one who argued that drawing Israel into a protracted war was the right way to save more Palestinians in the long run? So you think this is an amazing strategic war and simultaneously wasn’t started by the people who had this amazing strategic idea?

I think you want it both ways that’s why you never give your entire position all at once. You want to give the appearance of not supporting the war because you’re just a simple peacenik while out the other side of your mouth you want to celebrate it as a great liberatory insurgency.

you have posted this disinfo a few times now. I actually looked it up when BGP originally posted the atrocity propaganda.

unsurprisingly, your description is almost certainly not accurate.

this is from a Gazan Christian who left years ago and is part of the West now. he is no fan of Hamas as any of his tweets or replies will show. his 18 year old sister did die of some sort of exhaustion while fleeing the murder a few months ago. I think his mom may have died similarly too. she was hospitalised that day from fatigue and I am not sure if she recovered. despite what BGP claims, those death/s are not part of the KHamas health ministries total.

we also have this but ofc I am not one to rate VOI but it decidedly different from what you are claiming. https://www.voanews.com/a/yazidi-sex-sla...

it had nothing to do with Hamas ofc.

and ofc since this story didnt catch on like the Western propagandists wanted, they decided to up the level.

I think the Palestinians have the right to self determination and that includes how they decide to resist a genocide.

is that clear enough for you? I dont know why you would call me a peacenik tbh. I have always been in favor of fighting genociders.

Actually, I think I may have solved the whole damn problem. It will take about a trillion dollars if you assume that we could find the approximately seventy two million qualified applicants from around the world willing to accept $15,000, but I think its worth it.

So the real story is that a sex slave was being held in Gaza for a decade under Hamas rule, everyone knew, and Hamas did nothing about it. And only after Hamas lost control due to Israel attacking them, were good Palestinians able to work with the Israel government to save her.

And you view Hamas as not morally culpable the way things went down? Fair enough. At least you are unconditionally loyal to your side. No one would ever accuse you otherwise.

1. Are they upset about the 100k plus people who have been displaced in North Israel because Lebanon is constantly launching missiles at them for a year?

Not so much because 99%+ of these people are temporarily living somewhere else while their homes are not destroyed. It's a bad thing for them for sure, but it's on a very different level and lots of bad things happen all the time and people only have so much sympathy for people who they've never met.

2. Are they upset that Hamas captured 200+ Israelis and tortured them for over a year, executing many when Israel is closing in on their location instead of just leaving them there?

I think so - most of them anyway. I mean "upset" is all relative. Probably almost everyone in this thread would be more real world upset if they dropped a slice of pizza than about anything happening in the ME.

3. We can’t create perverse incentives to just throw civilian after civilian at an opposing force in the hopes the international community will step in to give you what you want.

Shrug. I didn't comment about anything related to this. I don't know who the "we" is really or how they are creating these incentives. Like, is "we" Iran? US policy in Israel at the moment seems to be dominated by just sending weapons to the Israeli military.

And obviously the majority of the people in the world outraged at Israel have zero first principles, and it is all just lizard brain tribalism; so it should come to no surprise this story didn't move the needle much. Just as 10/7 itself didn't move the needle much.

so retaliatory sexual violence, torture of hostages, killing of civilians, etc, none of that is bad in principle, just the targets of it can be good or bad targets, correct? so if Hamas was doing the same thing that you accuse Israel of doing, this would be fine because they are resisting colonial oppression? or do you have standards of behavior you expect out of both sides?

I meant to be rigorous and I don't agree with the last paragraph. I'm sure there are many people in the world (I don't mean a large percentage, but still there are a lot of people in the world) who want me along with every American, or Jew, or Man or Human or whatever dead. If their chances of accomplishing that are sufficiently small, I don't think I have the right to violently make it so the chance is zero.

I guess you left room to quibble over what "miniscule" means, but that's where we were at with the 5% (or orders of magnitude less danger that there actually is for an Israeli from a Gazan).

10/7 moved the needle hugely but netanyhau chose to move it right back. And then carry on.

I prefer to stick with the real world and none of those accusations are accurate. those are hypothetical fantasies to justify a real life genocide and I am trying to learn to not answer bullshit loaded questions.

well no, that is not the real story according to Hamas (lol), the Christian that I linked, or the article that I linked.

you make it seem like Hamas was keeping her in Gaza when at worst they just didnt give a **** (kinda like how the USA doesnt give a **** about all the sex slaves inside its borders or on Esptein like islands) but more likely it seems that, you know, the whole borders being closed by Israel and Egypt was a real impetus to her escape.

we can speculate all day on why she couldnt leave, but blaming Hamas and the Palestinian people is very likely disinfo atrocity propaganda.

Thank you. I can now save my time by not reading anything you say.

Wow. How you are not Secretary of State with your prescient knowledge of the world is beyond my understanding.

I thought you were going to stop reading anything I said. I guess you're a liar. I guess I can stop believing anything you say.