Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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33515 Replies
so they gave up stolen land? wow, great job buddy. and lol at acting like they have given up anything in the West Bank and Jerusalem over the last 20 years.
and finally, despite leaving the settlements that they had no right to, the International Courts ruled that they maintained an occupation over Gaza for that entire time.
you are entitled to your opinions but not your facts.
It is actually pretty wild that it never really hit the news, but apparently Israel did a massive strike against Iranian/Hezbollah banks in Beirut last night. They are announcing a new phase in the war where they go after Hezbollah's finances.
As I mentioned before, one of the main holds Hezbollah has had over Lebanon has been financial, in that large amount of Iranian oil proceeds are laundered to Hezbollah to finance their war machine. And Israel has announced a new stage of the war where they are attempting to break Hezbollah financially, to hopefully break their stranglehold over Lebanon.
I have made this point before, but you really have to be a Muslim supremacist to support the IRI/Hamas position on Jerusalem.
Jerusalem is historically the most important city in Jewish faith. No one refutes this. Also, no one refutes that for somewhere around 1,000 years Jerusalem was under Muslim control and Jews were forbidden. Although under the Ottomans there was periods of lax control where Jews did covertly pilgrimage and pray there.
Also, no one disputes that following 1948 Jordan took control of Jerusalem and again no Jews were allowed. However, when Israel re took Jerusalem for the first time in millennia, they instituted a policy of allowing Jews, Christians and Muslims to all visit and pray there, for probably the first time ever.
And the IRI/Hamas position is that Jerusalem should again exclusively be given to Palestinians, where there is no expectation Jews would be allowed there if this happened, as it wasn't for the last 1,000 years under Muslim control.
Given Israel's demonstrated tolerance and Muslim intolerance, and the importance of the city to both faiths, there really is no moral argument to support the IRI/Hamas position.
its all over the news. they bombed a bunch of banks that do no interest loans and essentially charity lending. ofc that sort of thing is the absolute antithesis of Western interests.
I read that 100k to 300k use those banks and 15-20% are Christian. if you didnt know, the Lebanese banking system and economy really hit the bottom of the barrel a few years ago so these financial institutions have been invaluable.
it no surprise that the West wants to dismantle any system of indigenous self reliance.
I have made this point before, but you really have to be a Muslim supremacist to support the IRI/Hamas position on Jerusalem.
Jerusalem is historically the most important city in Jewish faith. No one refutes this. Also, no one refutes that for somewhere around 1,000 years Jerusalem was under Muslim control and Jews were forbidden. Although under the Ottomans there was periods of lax control where Jews did covertly pilgrimage and pray there.
Also, no one disputes that following 1948 Jordan took
This is assigning a view to people who largely don't hold it. "Don't annex land" more accurately conveys the viewpoint most hold and it is both very moral and a law which the entire would should agree to. There is a reason Trump's recognition of East Jerusalem is mentioned so often in Russian propaganda: they want a world where you can take places by force. Just because IRI/Hamas hold a view doesn't make it amoral, this is pretty much what the entire world agrees to except Trump and Guatemala.
It is unfortunate that if annexations were not allowed then Jews would probably be deprived of this holy place, but the world would still be a better, safer place for it. In the long run it would help in the very long proccess of peace in this region and Jews being able to go there without threat of violence.
so they gave up stolen land? wow, great job buddy. and lol at acting like they have given up anything in the West Bank and Jerusalem over the last 20 years.
and finally, despite leaving the settlements that they had no right to, the International Courts ruled that they maintained an occupation over Gaza for that entire time.
you are entitled to your opinions but not your facts.
But you said that it’s within their nature to not give up settlements. I simply offered a point of historical clarification that they give up land and settlements. And I agree they are against international law… which is why I advocate them giving them all up entirely in any peace agreement with Palestine that could arise.
they didnt give up the **** they stole out of their kindness and generosity. and its real disingenuous to act like they have given up anything in the West Bank over the last 20 years. they have only take a ton more land there.
they didnt give up the **** they stole out of their kindness and generosity. and its real disingenuous to act like they have given up anything in the West Bank over the last 20 years. they have only take a ton more land there.
I can sign up to that and still disagree that it’s within their nature to always do settlements. I’m not trying to debate bro you but this is what you said:
Israel is never giving up on the settlements. its their reason for existence. its the defining principle of their ideology.
But anyway I’m not even sure what we’re arguing about here. You want them to give up all their land, but if you think it’s not within their nature to give up any land whatsoever so I guess the logical conclusion is that Israel needs to be violently destroyed? This just seems like it will devolve into the far right of Israel against the far right of Palestine, and in that case Israel will clearly win or there will be a huge regional war in the Middle East that will cost millions of lives. That seems like a horrible projection which I refuse to accept politically, pragmatically, or morally.
It is actually pretty wild that it never really hit the news, but apparently Israel did a massive strike against Iranian/Hezbollah banks in Beirut last night. They are announcing a new phase in the war where they go after Hezbollah's finances.
As I mentioned before, one of the main holds Hezbollah has had over Lebanon has been financial, in that large amount of Iranian oil proceeds are laundered to Hezbollah to finance their war machine. And Israel has announced a new stage of the war where the
The mass murder was the top story in the BBC
Israel has carried out more air strikes in Beirut and southern Lebanon, including on branches of a bank that it says is supporting Hezbollah.
Explosions were heard in southern Beirut's Dahieh district, an area controlled by Hezbollah, as well as the Bekaa Valley and southern Lebanon. It is unclear whether there are any casualties.
The Israeli military earlier warned people living in 25 areas in Lebanon - including 14 in the capital Beirut - that it planned to carry out strikes throughout the night.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) also said it would target banks and other financial infrastructure supporting Hezbollah.
In a statement on Sunday evening, IDF spokesman Rear Adm Daniel Hagari warned that "anyone located near sites used to fund Hezbollah’s terror activities must move away from these locations immediately".
Amazing that what you called a mass murder included warning people to leave the area. You guys know that every time you mischaracterize Israel’s military action you completely destroy the discourse when it comes to criticizing Israel right?
The Israeli military earlier warned people living in 25 areas in Lebanon - including 14 in the capital Beirut - that it planned to carry out strikes throughout the night.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) also said it would target banks and other financial infrastructure supporting Hezbollah.
In a statement on Sunday evening, IDF spokesman Rear Adm Daniel Hagari warned that "anyone located near sites used to fund Hezbollah’s terror activities must move away from these locations immediately".
The robots give you the news you want to hear.
Yeah i know they were nice enough to tell them to leave.
That's still mass murder. You can't go round bombing banks in urban areas just because you gave a warning. Well you can but you're responsible for every death.
The mass murder was the top story in the BBC
As has already been mentioned, if you were going to give a bad faith characterization of what happened, you probably shouldn't have included a link to an article that makes it clear how bad faith your characterization was.
You do realize there is a war going on, and Hezbollah is shooting hundreds of rockets a day into Israel, as they have been doing for over a year. Correct?
I dont recall Hezbollah announcing their targets ahead of time, and telling Israeli civilians to evacuate. I do realize that Hezbollah controlled areas of Beirut are densely populated, so it is asking a lot for hundreds of thousands of people to evacuate ahead of Israel destroying Hezbollah infrastructure. But that is probably one of many reasons Hezbollah shouldn't have started this war, and shouldn't be continuing it indefinitely.
No it's not bad faith
I know they were nice enough to tell them to leave.
That's still mass murder. You can't go round bombing banks in urban areas just because you gave a warning. Well you can but you're responsible for every death.
Hezbullah are responsible for eveyone they murder as well
I will of course take it back if they had checked the areas were evacuated before they bombed them.
I will of course take it back if they had checked the areas were evacuated before they bombed them.
Well, last time I checked banks aren't open at night, and this is on top of repeated warnings to stay away.
Israel does try to minimize civilian casualties with its planned strikes, and does call off strikes if it determines there will be too much collateral damage. But it does seem to have a threshold for acceptable levels of collateral damage that varies depending on the importance of the target. Israel assuredly monitored the area and determined collateral damage would be under whatever threshold they determined was acceptable.
But I doubt you would personally find the threshold moral or acceptable. So there is little concern you will feel compelled to take anything back.
Yes urban areas are still populated at night and banks are not usually isolated from that population.
If they took care and didn't kill a lot of people then I will very happily take it back.
Yeah i know they were nice enough to tell them to leave.
That's still mass murder. You can't go round bombing banks in urban areas just because you gave a warning. Well you can but you're responsible for every death.
Nobody is claiming that they aren’t responsible for the deaths. Obviously they made a military decision to announce when and where they would be doing strikes and warned civilians accordingly. This standard of warfare is so above what the other side would give… which is not to say it shouldn’t happen it’s more just breathtaking that you appear to not factor that at all into your analysis.
Okay good.. Barring having taken great care not to do so, they are responsible for the deaths of people who happened to live near a bank in an urban area. Lets hope they took this great care I hear about.
If you want to quibble about the word murder then fine.
If you want to claim this is some legitimate military target then we very much disagree. But I'm very happy for courts to decide.
This is the complete collapse of your argument, and was right at the start. So I'm ignoring everything after this to address this point.
For starters, they aren't performing ethnic cleansing. You refuse to accept the realities of the field of battle in this case (density, proximity of armed militants to public, etc). I can't change your mind, so be it. They are in a war.
But beyond that, the existential threat to Israel is REAL, and the defence apparatus is well aware (and you can read a lot of s
Well that's a good way of waiving away most of the facts.
Much of the population and most of the government view non Jews as subhuman. Why should my tax money go to people who think I'm subhuman?
We're just supposed to trust that people who openly say Palestinians are animals, will be judicious in the use of force against them?
Yes, I'm sure the convicted terrorist and convicted racist from The Jewish Power party will be meticulously ethical about raping and starving uncharged prisoners in an above board manner.
A war is generally something that happens between the armies of nation states. You are dealing with what is more commonly called an insurgency, or terrorists if you like. Many such cases. IRA, KKK, etc.
You have no argument as to why this is the only case in history where this justifies killing 10s of thousands of civilians, blowing up hospitals or schools and snipers shooting small children.
I mean, it's obvious why some believe in this one particular case, a life on one side is worth more than a thousand on the other. In Israel, they say it openly. But all these naked assertions, with no evidence that this is the only way are a nice cover. "Iran knows" "Isreal knows." You in the NSA? You ever read a single academic book about such things?
It's just the Nazi approach of LARPing as if you are the real victim as you masacre women and children in "self defense" and then say out of the other side of your mouth "they were just animals anyway."
"Oh no, my mental health. The only cure is to rape a prisoner and shoot a 5 year old in the face."
I'm not totally unreceptive to stuff like Israel warning people to leave before they bomb somewhere. That is actually unusual. But, it just doesn't jive. Telling people to leave before a bomb is what you do with like one bomb in one exact location, not to many entire areas. What's happening is just insane. It's not like modern wars. It's like WW2 scale bombing.
I am not victim in this (those are the people whos families are being burned alive or buried alive or raped to death in Israeli jail)
The victims are also the Israelis who were murdered, tortured, raped and taken hostage - and of course their families who had to watch their dead children given a tickertape parade through the streets of Gaza.
I'm not totally unreceptive to stuff like Israel warning people to leave before they bomb somewhere. That is actually unusual. But, it just doesn't jive. Telling people to leave before a bomb is what you do with like one bomb in one exact location, not to many entire areas. What's happening is just insane. It's not like modern wars. It's like WW2 scale bombing.
I would say this is what happens when industrialized nations decide they cant afford to lose wars. The US has had the luxury of being able to lose pretty much every war they have fought since WWII, so they dont resort to this level of destruction.
I know you personally feel it would be more ethical to let yourself lose a war (even one of national survival) than resort to this level of destruction to survive; but very few people and even less governments would agree with this position.
I hope you are not naive enough to believe if the US was being attacked on 5 fronts simultaneously and felt survival was at stake, this level of destruction would be off the table.
I would say clearly Israel has made a point to make sure Gaza is non functional for the present and foreseeable future, and wont be functional again until they decide it can be (under non Hamas control at a minimum).
If it was just Hamas and Israel and no one else was involved, I would tend to agree this is excessive and counterproductive. But given Gaza is just one of 5 fronts the IRI is attacking Israel from, the decision to eliminate this front from the chess board as much as possible seems rational.
One of Israel’s objectives is destroying Hamas’ tunnels. Hamas also fights in and out of civilian homes, hospitals, mosques, etc. It’s not a conventional war.
