Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
2. Racist posts and other bigoted statements that target a particular group or individuals of such groups with derogatory comments are not allowed. This should not need further explanation.
3. Graphic Images need to be in spoilers with a trigger warning.
4. Wishing Harm on other posters will result in an immediate timeout.
5. Genocidal statements such as "Kill 'em all" etc, are no longer permissible in the thread.
If anyone has any questions about the above, please PM me. I don't want a discussion about the rules to derail the content of this thread. If anything needs clarifying, I will do that in this thread.
Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
33517 Replies
Okay good.. Barring having taken great care not to do so, they are responsible for the deaths of people who happened to live near a bank in an urban area. Lets hope they took this great care I hear about.
If you want to quibble about the word murder then fine.
If you want to claim this is some legitimate military target then we very much disagree. But I'm very happy for courts to decide.
Chez (and anyone else that hasn't gone full SJP but believes Israel is wantonly committing war crimes against civilians),
I have a more general question. Nations like the US, UK, France etc. have satellites and intelligence. They know more or less what Israel is doing. In the case of the US they probably can piece together everything after the fact. Do you really think Israel is randomly bombing civilian buildings and committing mass murder, and all these governments are agnostic about it?
I mean, even if you believe Israel itself was capable of the stuff it is being accused of (I personally dont), I certainly dont think my own govt would be so permissive of it. Now I know all the nations I just named have been critical of Israel for its actions and policies, and have even taken measure to punish Israel. But if 1/100 of the propaganda people like Victor and Jalfrezi regularly post in this thread was true, I would absolutely expect my govt and yours would react much stronger than they have been.
One of Israel’s objectives is destroying Hamas’ tunnels. Hamas also fights in and out of civilian homes, hospitals, mosques, etc. It’s not a conventional war.
Whether you think the juice was worth the squeeze, the IDF believes one of the reasons they got to Sinwar is they were so successful in destroying the tunnel infrastructure he was flushed close to the surface. Of course if this is true, it is probably also true this is the reason he ordered the 6 hostages executed, because they were being held in an area they would be found alive if not executed first.
I'm not totally unreceptive to stuff like Israel warning people to leave before they bomb somewhere. That is actually unusual. But, it just doesn't jive. Telling people to leave before a bomb is what you do with like one bomb in one exact location, not to many entire areas. What's happening is just insane. It's not like modern wars. It's like WW2 scale bombing.
It’s horrible. What’s worse is that there was a temporary ceasefire early in the war which Hamas violated. And Hamas could have surrendered and given up the hostages at any point, including now. Do you ever wonder why that never happened despite the fact that there were intermediaries that could have ensured a proper ceasefire between the two nations that if Israel had violated they would have had the ire of the entire world?
I’m not saying Israel is perfect by the way. I especially think that the discipline that Israel has shown leaves a lot to be desired, in the sense that it seems higher than what would be expected and there are reports to back this up. But I’m not going to lose sight of the bigger picture as far as who started the war, who is achieving military objectives, who is being attacked on multiple fronts, how they are facilitating international aid, etc
Chez (and anyone else that hasn't gone full SJP but believes Israel is wantonly committing war crimes against civilians),
I have a more general question. Nations like the US, UK, France etc. have satellites and intelligence. They know more or less what Israel is doing. In the case of the US they probably can piece together everything after the fact. Do you really think Israel is randomly bombing civilian buildings and committing mass murder, and all these governments are agnostic about it?
I m
Despite huge pressure from the usa and the natural inclinations of our governments the UK has takens some action.
Pathetic action so far I'd agree but still extraordinary. Almost unbelievable that could happen but that's how appalling the situation is.
Similarly for so many other countries. Even the usa makes noises.
Despite huge pressure from the usa and the natural inclinations of our governments the UK has takens some action.
Pathetic action so far I'd agree but still extraordinary. Almost unbelievable that could happen but that's how appalling the situation is.
Similarly for so many other countries. Even the usa makes noises.
I would like to think the actions would be MUCH stronger if there was actually wanton murder and destruction.
I would say nations like the US, UK and France are acting as if they accept most of what Israel says at face value; but they still think this is unacceptable. And I highly doubt they are just taking Israeli word at face value. I would assume their own intelligence indicates what Israeli says is more or less true.
And although Israel's actions and general strategy still may be unacceptable at some level, it is a far cry from what is being accused by far left wing and Muslim world propaganda, like the kind that is continually being pumped into this thread.
It really makes no sense that any of the more sensational pro Hamas/Hezbollah/IRI propaganda was true, and Western govts are acting like they are.
This is the Uk statment in July at the UN. Some arms sales have also been suspended.. This is unparalled stuff to a friend and an ally.
Nine months since the 7 October attacks, at least 120 hostages, alive and dead, remain held in horrific conditions. Innocent Palestinians continue to suffer and die in Gaza. A devastating humanitarian crisis is worsening by the day. There is an imminent risk of famine. And we are deeply concerned about the risk of regional escalation, in particular along the blue line between Israel and Lebanon.
President, in one of his first acts as UK Prime Minister, Sir Keir Starmer set out the urgent need for an immediate ceasefire, immediate release of all hostages, and an immediate surge of humanitarian aid into Gaza. We strongly support the ongoing efforts of Egypt, Qatar and the United States to this end - the deal on the table, endorsed by this Council in resolution 2735, is the best chance to support this. We urge both sides to show flexibility in negotiations and demonstrate a clear and firm commitment to ensure implementation of the deal.
First, we are calling on Israel to protect civilians, to allow unfettered aid into Gaza and to ensure the UN and humanitarian actors have the access and equipment necessary to safely get aid to those who need it most. We reaffirm our support for UNRWA and the vital role it plays in saving lives in Gaza as well as providing basic services and promoting stability in the West Bank and the wider region – a fundamental building block for lasting peace. It is essential that UNRWA is able to operate on a sustainable financial basis and able to deliver on its mandate.
Second, we express our serious concern at the escalating violence perpetrated by settlers in the West Bank. We condemn recent Israeli expansion of settlements. We reject decisions by the Government of Israel to declare 2,357 hectares of land in the West Bank as ‘state lands’ so far this year – the largest of such declarations of state land since the Oslo Accords. Such acts are not only illegal under international law, but also undermine prospects for a two-state solution. We demand a halt to these illegal activities.
Third, there is no military solution to this conflict. Pursuing military options will only deepen divisions and perpetuate the suffering of Palestinians and Israelis. The civilian death toll in Gaza is unacceptable. Reports of civilian casualties following Israeli strikes near schools and designated humanitarian zones in Gaza in recent weeks were appalling – as the Foreign Secretary said, urgent measures are needed to protect civilians.
We are appalled by the impact of the conflict on women and children. The UN estimates that there are over 17,000 unaccompanied children in Gaza, and over 5,000 women have been confirmed as killed, with many more unidentified or missing. Many of those killed and missing are mothers. Children are especially vulnerable to being killed, maimed, separated from their family, suffering trauma, acute malnutrition, violence, and exploitation. Women and girls in Gaza face a desperate struggle to access food and ensure basic hygiene, health and dignity in the face of unfathomable sanitary conditions, rape, and conflict related sexual violence.
Peace will be sustainable only if both Israelis and Palestinians recommit to a renewed peace process resulting in a two-state solution, with a safe and secure Israel alongside a viable and sovereign Palestinian State – the undeniable right of the Palestinian people. The UK Foreign Secretary’s visit to the region this week signifies our unwavering commitment to this end. The UK Prime Minister has spoken with Prime Minister Netanyahu, President Abbas, and other regional leaders, underscoring the UK’s commitment to play its full diplomatic role in securing a ceasefire deal and creating the space for a credible and irreversible pathway towards a two-state solution. The world needs a safe and secure Israel alongside a viable and sovereign Palestinian state.
I know you personally feel it would be more ethical to let yourself lose a war (even one of national survival) than resort to this level of destruction to survive; but very few people and even less governments would agree with this position.
No, that's not it. I think Israel is absolutely not threatened by Hamas. If Hamas' only goal has been to kill as many Israelis as possible for all our lives, 10/7 was like two 1-outers in a row. Part of the reason it was as "successful" as it was at all is because so much of the Israeli Army was in the WB protecting idiot settlers who were violently demonstrating in Arab towns at the time.
I would like to think the actions would be MUCH stronger if there was actually wanton murder and destruction.
I would say nations like the US, UK and France are acting as if they accept most of what Israel says at face value; but they still think this is unacceptable. And I highly doubt they are just taking Israeli word at face value. I would assume their own intelligence indicates what Israeli says is more or less true.
And although Israel's actions and general strategy still may be unaccepta
So would many of us but maybe we're less suprised than you.
I've linked above to the UN statement.
So would many of us but maybe we're less suprised than you.
I've linked above to the UN statement.
I assume you meant UK statement. And most of that statement is in line with what Israel is admitting is going on, although I would be very skeptical of anything coming from the UN, given their clear biases and being corrupt and compromised (IMO).
But it certainly doesn't align with most of the "war crime" accusations being levied against Israel
No, that's not it. I think Israel is absolutely not threatened by Hamas. If Hamas' only goal has been to kill as many Israelis as possible for all our lives, 10/7 was like two 1-outers in a row. Part of the reason it was as "successful" as it was at all is because so much of the Israeli Army was in the WB protecting idiot settlers who were violently demonstrating in Arab towns at the time.
Very few Israelis have been killed since 10/7; but there is the psychological dimension of having to continually run to bomb shelters over and over and over for months on end. I think you are discounting the negative impact of this going on; on top of how it would be perceived as a national disaster if Hamas was allowed to just retain control and rebuild the war machine for the next round after a hostage deal, which most of the world wanted to happen.
Very few Israelis have been killed since 10/7; but there is the psychological dimension of having to continually run to bomb shelters over and over and over for months on end. I think you are discounting the negative impact of this going on; on top of how it would be perceived as a national disaster if Hamas was allowed to just retain control and rebuild the war machine for the next round after a hostage deal, which most of the world wanted to happen.
I never said it was nothing, but it's not surprising that you think I'm discounting it if you think it makes it ok that Israel is killing 100000+ people and destroying most of the buildings in Gaza.
I never said it was nothing, but it's not surprising that you think I'm discounting it if you think it makes it ok that Israel is killing 100000+ people and destroying most of the buildings in Gaza.
I am not sure about the 100,000+ dead number.
But Israel says it is destroying Hamas tunnels and infrastructure, and the degree of damage is more or less a byproduct of how Hamas has completely militarized Gaza. All indications are this is more or less true, and Israel is not wantonly bombing schools and mosques and destroying civilian infrastructure as part of some genocide campaign. And if it was doing this, I kind of think other nations that have intelligence would have noticed by now, and responded accordingly; and it would be harsher than just temporarily withholding munitions.
I assume you meant UK statement. And most of that statement is in line with what Israel is admitting is going on, although I would be very skeptical of anything coming from the UN, given their clear biases and being corrupt and compromised (IMO).
But it certainly doesn't align with most of the "war crime" accusations being levied against Israel
Yes the Uk statement at the UN.
The UK government recognises the international courts to decide these matters as I agree they should. They have dropped our challange to the ICJ invetsigation and have said they will abide by any warrants issues.
I'd like to see these courts be much stronger (i'd love to see blair up in front of one) but I do agree this should be a matter for the courts.
Despite huge pressure from the usa and the natural inclinations of our governments the UK has takens some action.
Pathetic action so far I'd agree but still extraordinary. Almost unbelievable that could happen but that's how appalling the situation is.
Similarly for so many other countries. Even the usa makes noises.
I do think the tide is turning on these things. Harris and Biden are both trying to leave a trail of statements and empty gestures to create a false narrative that they oppose the massacre. E.g Biden put forward a 30 day deadline that hilariously comes after the election.
MSM understand that, because of social media, they can't fully suppress the truth. So you are starting to see stuff like this. This is the Dem network and this hurts Harris, but...
It'll be interesting if Trump wins, because then vote blue no matter who types will do a 180 on this issue and there will be much more resistance and a lot more media coverage.
It's still possible Isreal will exterminate the inferior race and settle all the land. It's hard to say who will stop them, with both US parties supporting them. Interesting times.
I dont expect the uk to do anything but follow the usa if it comes to it.
Even the fact we have gone as far as we have in objecting to netanyahu's actions is probably reflects the usa being so pissed off they haven't objected too much to us doing so.
for those unfamiliar with uk politics, the current govt, labour, has a fairly significant antisemitic base, and its strategy seems to be to throw them the occasional piece of red meat in the form of some statement or gesture
the actual policy however is quite firmly pro-israel, and will remain so
you might be vaguely aware that labour were recently led by a group of pro-hamas politicians, but they never got into government and were booted out of their positions in disgrace (partly due to the publication of a damning report into their antisemitism), and now the adults are back in charge
That's an extremely biased view but okay even going by it your adults in charge made that statement at the UN, ended some arm sales, removed obstruction to the ICJ, said they will honour any warrants etc etc. Extraordinary by any standards.
Yes we're pro-Israel. Im pro Israel as well
for those unfamiliar with uk politics, the current govt, labour, has a fairly significant antisemitic base, and its strategy seems to be to throw them the occasional piece of red meat in the form of some statement or gesture
the actual policy however is quite firmly pro-israel, and will remain so
you might be vaguely aware that labour were recently led by a group of pro-hamas politicians, but they never got into government and were booted out of their positions in disgrace (partly due to the publi
You know how white supremacists claim that anyone who disagrees with them is anti-white, including millions of whites?
the report i'm on about was put together by an NGO, the equality and human rights commission. maybe go ahead and email them about your concerns re white supremacy
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/site...
We found specific examples of harassment, discrimination and political interference in our evidence, but equally of concern was a lack of leadership within the Labour Party on these issues, which is hard to reconcile with its stated commitment to a zero-tolerance approach to antisemitism.
Israel is never giving up on the settlements. its their reason for existence. its the defining principle of their ideology.
the rest of your post is just the typical gish-gallop telling me to not believe my lying eyes. civilians arent "dying in war". they are being deliberately murdered by a genocidal regime clearly intent on conquest and collective revenge.
We already gave up settlements, not once and not twice.
1948 - im sure you are more than aware of "the nakba". are you also aware that jewish settelments were occupied and dissmantaled during the war?
1982- the jewish settelments in Sinai were dissmantaled in accordance with the peace agreement with Egypt.
1994- two jewish settelments (nahal ginat and nahal irit) were dissmantaled in accoradnce with the Oslo accords.
2005- the jewish settelments in Gaza were dissmantaled.
I can go on and on. want to change your statements or truth really does not matter?
moreover and something more important: what is our "ideology"?
are their more or fewer settlements now than ever before?
the component of the ideology I am discussing is the expansionist designs. just like the USA in the 1800s.
just bc they destroyed or retreated from a few settlements along the way, doesnt mean that they havent been proliferating consistently.
are their more or fewer settlements now than ever before?
the component of the ideology I am discussing is the expansionist designs. just like the USA in the 1800s.
just bc they destroyed or retreated from a few settlements along the way, doesnt mean that they havent been proliferating consistently.
Victor, you are very disingenuous. you claimed that Israel is never giving up settlements, and I proved it is a false statement and a false narative. at list be honest enough to acknowledge that.
and we did not destroy a few settelments, but a lot, force moving thousands and thousands of Israelis each time. and for what reason- the possibilty of peace, or an actual peace agreement. which tells you that all the palestinians need to do is negotiate in good faith, and Israel is more than willing to "walk miles" towards them.
to your second point - "the component of the ideology I am discussing is the expansionist designs" - please inform me where is this said ideology anchored?
no Id say the disingenuous one is the guy claiming that Israel is giving up the settlements as they expand immensely.
its like if I tell a fat person they are never losing the weight with their lifestyle and then the guy who has ballooned from 200 to 300 pounds tells me, uh uh I lost weight some random month years ago, before he packed on 20 more pounds.
