Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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33517 Replies
no Id say the disingenuous one is the guy claiming that Israel is giving up the settlements as they expand immensely.
its like if I tell a fat person they are never losing the weight with their lifestyle and then the guy who has ballooned from 200 to 300 pounds tells me, uh uh I lost weight some random month years ago, before he packed on 20 more pounds.
that is such a false equivalent, that i question now not only your honesty, but also your intellect.
lets set the record stright and try to debate on facts. i never claimed the settelments in the west bank did ntot expand threw the years. you do realise every town/city/village expands. that is a given and a fact.
I did however criticize your crictrasation that Israel never gives up settelments, as it is a false statement. there are at list 5 areas, that were once setteled by Israelis, and no longer are (i have secular friends who lived in Sinai and were forcibly moved from there after the egypt peace agreement).
as for the west bank, we did dismentel a few settlements, but ofc most of them are only getting larger. none of them will be dismantled, without a peace agreement.
Well that's a good way of waiving away most of the facts.
Much of the population and most of the government view non Jews as subhuman. Why should my tax money go to people who think I'm subhuman?
"
Again, I stopped here. Didn't read a single word after. If your argument is going to be based on opinion like this, why take you seriously?
Israel has been under attack for longer than your parents have been alive. What Israelis FEEL, is anger at that. So cracks start to form. The same cracks as on the other side. Do you know what they teach about Jews in SCHOOL in Gaza? Go back and look what an American though of a German in the 40's. Didn't like them much either.
Congrats, you have just figured out that in war, sides really start to hate the people trying to kill them.
But if you think that some very large proportion of Jews view non Jews as subhumans, we have NOTHING to talk about. You're on ignore, enjoy. And btw THAT, should have been modded. That's Nazi talk, too.
a danish ex UNIFIL soldier gave an interview about his service.
here are some of the most relevant quotes:
"Hezbollah controlled all the areas where the UN personnel could visit. In some places - it was even impossible to take pictures"
"We were completely dependent on Hezbollah. Our freedom of movement was restricted"
"We reported on a daily basis violations of resolution 1701 to our superiors, in particular the restrictions on our freedom of movement. We were instructed to report all violations, no matter how many. But nothing happened. We didn't hear back from them, and they didn't initiate anything. It was very frustrating and it only confirmed what I experienced in other countries I was sent to: the UN is incompetent."
"We often visited the IDF on the Israeli side of the border, to get their picture of the situation. And they could pinpoint the location where they identified Hezbollah on the other side of the border"
BUT ISREAL...
that is such a false equivalent, that i question now not only your honesty, but also your intellect.
lets set the record stright and try to debate on facts. i never claimed the settelments in the west bank did ntot expand threw the years. you do realise every town/city/village expands. that is a given and a fact.
I did however criticize your crictrasation that Israel never gives up settelments, as it is a false statement. there are at list 5 areas, that were once setteled by Israelis, and no lon
if you want to get into nitty disingenuous semantical arguments at least make sure you arent deliberately changing the meaning of what I say.
a danish ex UNIFIL soldier gave an interview about his service.
here are some of the most relevant quotes:
"Hezbollah controlled all the areas where the UN personnel could visit. In some places - it was even impossible to take pictures"
"We were completely dependent on Hezbollah. Our freedom of movement was restricted"
"We reported on a daily basis violations of resolution 1701 to our superiors, in particular the restrictions on our freedom of movement.
People have dug very deep ideological foxholes on this one. And they're never climbing out.
There are important lessons here for securing Gaza in the future too. Has to be a willing force, not just a bunch of tourists with no real ability to do anything.
People have dug very deep ideological foxholes on this one. And they're never climbing out.
There are important lessons here for securing Gaza in the future too. Has to be a willing force, not just a bunch of tourists with no real ability to do anything.
Agree. and i do belive that within 5-10 years Gaza can be self ruled again. first we have to help rebuild it (after the war is over, which hopefully is soon). than deradicalize and set a governing body that has palestinians and foreign players working together.
BUT ISRAEL...
Btw for those of you who never saw this movie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_Days_(fi....
5 Days is a 2005 Israeli documentary film directed by Yoav Shamir. It is about the withdrawal of Israeli settlers from the Gaza Strip that took place from 14 to 18 August 2005.
Incredible film. The settlers chained themselves inside their community center. The IDF had to come and forcefully remove them. Hard to forget, because it was Israeli on Israeli (a lot of IDF guys needed therapy after). If they have to, they'll do it again. Just not under THIS government. It will be something more to the center.
Israel is never giving up the settlements. just bc they have in the past does not mean they will in the future. theres a lot of things I did in the past that I will never do again.
the broader point and not the semantical nitty disingenuous strawman that you are trying to shoehorn in, is that Israel is inherently expansionist and this is shown in their history and actions.
Much of the population and most of the government view non Jews as subhuman. Why should my tax money go to people who think I'm subhuman?
."
Had to respond - do you know anything about the Israeli society?
I have a law office in the (somewhat) northern part of Israel. A very high percentage of the judges i practice before in the northern courts are arabs - over 40% of the civil judges in the low court and over 30% at the district court (I practice civil law).
the head of the northern bar association is an Israeli arab.
many of the state attorney I litigate with/against are arabs.
as many mentioned, in the Israeli supreme court sits an arab judge, which I also argued in front.
I employ arab lawyers and represent arab clients. this is not a rare case, but the overwhelming majority. and this is just one profession.
there are many many many arab doctors in hospitols, including in high manegment positions.
in the university i studied at, as in every university, there is an affirmative action in favor of Arabs. im sure you were never told that fact.
so &% for claiming most of us see non jews as sub human
BUT ISRAEL...
Israel is never giving up the settlements. just bc they have in the past does not mean they will in the future. theres a lot of things I did in the past that I will never do again.
the broader point and not the semantical nitty disingenuous strawman that you are trying to shoehorn in, is that Israel is inherently expansionist and this is shown in their history and actions.
sorry Victor, you clearly lost on this point and the proof is you just conjured every woke buzz word available in the dictionary.
I do still invite you to show me where the ideology of Israel is to expand is anchored
BUT ISRAEL...
its pretty telling the blatant dishonesty shown by literally changing the words I wrote and arguing against that which is required for you to claim victory.
I do still invite you to show me where the ideology of Israel is to expand is anchored
Israel's settlements and land seizures (ie literally stealing of land and resources) continue at an immense rate. the point of a system is what it does.
The ethnic cleansing of the Bedoin is intensifying, even though Israel is going to give up the settlements it replaces them with.
OK Victor, as you cant anchor your claims, i decided to help you. please Find the differences:
Israel declaration of independence:
THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
The hamas covenant:
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.
Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem wherever he may be.
The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised
[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility
Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle. ...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act
The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him
The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it
Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion
The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews
The Palestinian Convention (from the PLO):
The Jews who lived in a permanent home in Palestine until the start of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians (meaning all other jews will be transferred)
The armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine and therefore, it is a strategy and not a tactic. The Palestinian confirms his determined, absolute and standing decision - to continue the armed struggle and move forward Towards the armed popular revolution to liberate his homeland, and to return to it, to maintain his right to live in it natural, and on the existence of his right to self-determination, and sovereignty over it
The partition of Palestine from 1947 and the establishment of Israel are null and void from the ground up, one is how much it has persisted, because they are against the will of the Palestinian Arab people and their natural right to their homeland, and because they contradict the The principles included in the United Nations Charter and the right of self-determination
Expressing its identity in the armed Palestinian revolution, the Palestinian Arab people reject all solutions that they are a substitute for the liberation of Palestine in its entirety, and rejects all plans aimed at eliminating the Palestinian problem or internationally
BUT ISRAEL...
I do still invite you to show me where the ideology of Israel is to expand is anchored
In the mind ya chucklehead. It's ideology.
Hey Bill, you have just moved to first place in the list of least intelligent poster ITT. please collect your reward at the door.
I will amuse you tough. a state ideology can't be "in the mind", as a state is not one person. Althusser argued that state ideology is manifested mostly in laws and media. those are all anchors which can be easily shown.
i.e. no one will claim that the soviet communust ideology was learnd from "the minds" of the rulers. it was written, published and argued. it is very damming that Victor cant show one base for his claim about the main Israeli ideology and it is more damming that you have no idea what is an ideology in accordance to political science.
BUT ISRAEL...
This thread right now
Hey Bill, you have just moved to first place in the list of least intelligent poster ITT. please collect your reward at the door.
I will amuse you tough. a state ideology can't be "in the mind", as a state is not one person. Althusser argued that state ideology is manifested mostly in laws and media. those are all anchors which can be easily shown.
i.e. no one will claim that the soviet communust ideology was learnd from "the minds" of the rulers. it was written, published and argued. it is very d
are you really going to argue that the settlements and land grabs are not sanctioned by the gov? that media doesnt promote them? that there are no laws entitling the stealing?
One Israeli demand is that the IDF be allowed to engage in "active enforcement" to make sure Hezbollah doesn't rearm and rebuild its military infrastructure in the areas of southern Lebanon that are close to the border, an Israeli official said.
The official added that Israel also demands its air force have freedom of operation in Lebanese air space.
On the one hand these are absolutely insane requests, on the other hand 15 years and Lebanon has failed to secure its own airspace.
are you really going to argue that the settlements and land grabs are not sanctioned by the gov? that media doesnt promote them? that there are no laws entitling the stealing?
I havent started to argue this point. I asked you first to show me.
you claim there are laws entitling the stealing of land. I implore you to direct me to said laws.
and remember - you claimed this is the main ideology of the state of Israel. you created a very high burden level and till now produced nothing.
BUT ISRAEL...
Have you ever even watched that video you keep posting? There is no sniper in the video and it does not appear a single person is hurt except the one person, indicating it was a successful targeted strike, if that is even what happened.. And it isn't even clear what happened.
One assume a drone dropped some very low yield munitions on the person (as the blast is very small), but we really have no clue, as we cant see any drone or bomb falling. Which is kind of weird, because when I see these kind of videos in the Ukraine/Russia front the drones and bombs move very slow and are easy to see. But no matter how much I slow this video I cant see anything.
Had to respond - do you know anything about the Israeli society?
I have a law office in the (somewhat) northern part of Israel. A very high percentage of the judges i practice before in the northern courts are arabs - over 40% of the civil judges in the low court and over 30% at the district court (I practice civil law).
the head of the northern bar association is an Israeli arab.
many of the state attorney I litigate with/against are arabs.
as many mentioned, in the Israeli supreme court sits an a
He seems to be cherry picking the most extreme right wing statements, and arguing this is what many/most Jews actually think. And he isn't interested in your facts that this is clearly not true.
I will say, if you try to do the same thing for Muslims you will be very quickly moderated in this thread, so I wouldn't suggest it.
I havent started to argue this point. I asked you first to show me.
you claim there are laws entitling the stealing of land. I implore you to direct me to said laws.
and remember - you claimed this is the main ideology of the state of Israel. you created a very high burden level and till now produced nothing.
BUT ISRAEL...
I mean I already linked to one article. how many times do I need to link it?
lets just say that its pretty clear you are posting in bad faith and requiring insane amounts of citations about things that you yourself are well of.
It really is wild, how it takes about 10 seconds looking at various MENA societies, and one can clearly see Israel isn't perfect, but as far as this part of the world goes, it is much more dedicated to diversity, cosmopolitism and liberal values than most of the rest of the MENA.
But Israel's critics around the world are completely uninterested in reality, and instead have created their own reality where Israel is the 4th Reich (as Trolly so eloquently alluded).
