Israel/Palestine thread

there is no "bombing of civilians".

there is bombing of targets which have to be destroyed and it's fully moral to bomb, that kills other people as well for various reasons.

there is no bombing of civilians. not by Israel.

there is the chance to frame Israel action as either a fully understandable set of actions that is completely moral and justified, or not.

and if you choose to frame those actions as not moral you are explicitly helping antisemites.

I would very much hope that Israel never adopts a Luciom-esque approach to the world

they are already doing it for the first time after 70 years of insanities (and 1950 years of worldwide persecution) after 10 7 which is what is creating a significant conversation here and elsewhere.

they decide enough is enough

That’s your problem. You think Jewish values are compatible with “unlimited violence.” I was taught they are not.

it's not about stated values of any specific group.

it's about what works in reality.

a group can either internalize what works, or not, and if it doesnt, he will rapidly (couple of centuries) cease to exist.

Jews kept existing as an identifiable, specific group even against all odds, insane oppression anywhere they lived, and absurd incentives to just give up on their identity and blend with local identities.

they managed to survive as specific groups against all that for 2 millennia. I think they internalized the golden rules of survival better than any other group in human history.

and the golden rules are "everything that works for survival is moral without absolutely any limit whatsoever to anything, and there are no other rules"

"Jewish values" as you understand them were a byproduct of being a persecuted Diaspora population living on the fringes of society. I think it very naive to assume that these "values" would persist unchanged when Israel became a nation state. Being the majority population of a nation state is a completely different paradigm than a minority diaspora population, and would always entail a philosophical change.

That being said, the "values" of the Israeli Jewish people are still far superior to those of any of the people attacking them, and most of the extreme rhetoric in this thread criticizing them is just straight prejudiced nonsense.

I also would point out part of the problem that Israel the nation has that their critics in this thread refuse to acknowledge is that the people attacking them do not feel they have a right to exist. And it is completely non negotiable, as their motivations are rooted in religious superstitions, so you cannot appeal to earthly rationality.

There is no carrot you can offer people like the IRI and Houthis to get them to stop plotting to destroy Israel. They sincerely view destroying Israel as a God ordained commandment. Under Obama, the US and its allies offered the IRI a lot of carrots to play nicely, and in return they turned half the Arab world into proxy armies that Israel is now having to fight. It didn't work.

The only thing that has worked so far with the IRI, its proxies and allies is the stick. If you attack Israel, the counter-response will be so severe you will lose the capacity to keep up the attack, and it will take years (at best) to regroup for the next attack.

I think Israel would be more than willing to "act better" if "acting better" worked, but unfortunately this doesn't work with Islamists. They only understand one thing; power and the will to respond to violence with violence.

So u believe a carrot will not work but the stick will work ?
I wonder why you think a stick will work when they already bombing their own body to wage war…..

FWIW I disregard your post almost entirely because no one says Israel cant protect themselves shrug .
But calling someone antisemitism because they don’t believe a genocide (because some here agree that unlimited kills is ok ) is the answer is stupid .

It’s ok to defend ourself but it’s not ok to kill 100 peoples for everyone that got killed .

I mean if the U.S. had that policy not many countries would be left in the Middle East .

I’m sorry u didn’t get the point .
U used an example that would gladly sided with Russia propaganda.
If u can’t see it shrug :..

FWIW if that land isn’t such a big issue and so tiny and Arab shouldn’t complain ,
Just take all those Jews and moved them in the middle of Texas ?
Same weather anyway ….

But then u got that bs of religion coming in I suppose ….

Do you find it problematic that some Catholics blame other Catholics for the rise of anti-Catholicism—due to downplaying and ignoring the sexual abuse scandals and not holding church officials accountable? Or should they not criticize others in their circle?

Without taking a position on I/P, I'd like to ask: Why group a person who identifies as x with all others who identify as x? If there's one thing I can confidently say, it's that everyone has their own idea of what x is, and not everyone has the same intentions or ideas. This is why I won't automatically dismiss someone that labels themselves an [insert political ideology]. It also means that I can dislike Bill Donahue while liking Thomas Merton.

Now THAT'S how you goddamn moderate.

Israel is using the bad faith ceasefire negotiations to steal the land. sometimes I hate being right all the time.

What, you think there is going to be long term occupation there or something?
Sounds wise to have both armies vacate the area before people to back to their rubble.... Err, houses

yes I think Israel is going to occupy that land and build military outposts and then eventually settlements. unless Hezbollah stops them.

Ok, calling your shot

Israel just bombed near this town.

notice how far north it is of the Litani. its clear they have no intention of following this cease fire which seemed obv all along.

so,
-is Hezbollah dumb and got played?
-is Hezbollah ready for this?
-was Hezbollah too weakened from the war to offer any more resistance?

The tweet he gave literally says the IDF will transfer the territory directly to Lebanese army and then leave. Which was the actual agreement that was made. And as the Lebanese army has not arrived yet, there is no reason to assume the IDF is going to leave before that happens. As usual, this post is an exercise in bad faith on Victor's part.

the same people that were defending the 1st hospital being bombed are also going to defend IDF setting up further and further away from Israel and eventually when settlements comes in they will say the Israeli soldiers need somewhere to live

Blindingly obvious this is what would happen. Gotta think Hezbollah is prepared for this, at least I hope so.

Israel isn't going to transfer anything unless HA drives them out. They lie and break every agreement bc that is the MO of Western colonial powers.

So any and all actions against Israel are justified. Got it.

And the “Palestinians” (or however one wants to label the other side) do not acknowledge the right of Israel and its citizens to exist, and thus any and all actions against them are justified.

Sounds like this conflict will not be eradicated until all combatants are dead and gone, as previously stated by MrDavitWilliam.

What one thing can Hezbollah do to prevent this? There is just one thing. No other options exist. What do you think that is?

Uhh the same way they drove them out in 2000 and 2006. Same way that Algeria, Vietnam, India, South Africa, et al removed oppressive militant colonial occupation powers.

Maybe you missed the current news. Israel has already agreed to leave, tail between its legs. Hezbollah has already won.

Allah Akbar, glory to the martyrs.

Under Hezbollah's continued guidance and protection, Lebanon can look forward to another glorious 40 years of prosperity.