Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
That being said, obviously there is a giant Irish/part-Irish diaspora throughout the world that is doing just fine. My maternal grandmothers mother was an Irish immigrant, and having that much Irish ancestry is probably on the low end for white Americans who have been here 3+ generations.
I think it is fair to just chock up Ireland (at the national level) questionable choices the last 100 years or so to anti British animus, and not any particular cultural or genetic shortcoming, and no-one else should take it too personally one way or another.
But constructing some fairy tale that Ireland the nation has a history of first principled stands against "genocide" is clearly laughable.
De Valera didn't turn down Churchill's offer of a united Ireland in exchange for joining the Allies because he was anti-Semitic. That's absurd.
And thousands of Irish men volunteered to fight the Nazis.
De Valera didn't turn down Churchill's offer of a united Ireland in exchange for joining the Allies because he was anti-Semitic. That's absurd.
And thousands of Irish men volunteered to fight the Nazis.
That isn't what the Wikipedia article says.
But it definitely refutes your argument the Irish govt of that time was motivated by any first principled stand against genocide due to their own history. And there is nothing to suggest what is going on today is either.
Clearly, anti-British animus and standard xenophobia better describes their positions, then and now.
Yeah. As was said...we were officially neutral.
De Valera denounced reports of Bergen-Belsen concentration camp as "anti-national propaganda"; according to Paul Bew, this was not out of disbelief but rather because the Holocaust undermined the assumptions underlying Irish neutrality: moral equivalence between the Allies and the Axis, and the idea that the Irish were the most persecuted people in Europe.[52]
I'm not interested in the musings of Unionist revisionists like Bew and am not accepting him as a valid non biased source.
Some Jewish refugees were taken in. Just not enough imo, so I won't argue with you on this, I think the Irish government's actions in some respects at least, were shameful and despicable,
That said:
In recognition of his consistent support for Ireland's Jews, Éamon de Valera, Ireland's Taoiseach during the war, has a forest in Israel named in his honour.
Jewish Telegraphic Agency
Despite being officially neutral Ireland was far more pro allies than axis.
That isn't what the Wikipedia article says.
But it definitely refutes your argument the Irish govt of that time was motivated by any first principled stand against genocide due to their own history. And there is nothing to suggest what is going on today is either.
Clearly, anti-British animus and standard xenophobia better describes their positions, then and now.
An old friend's great uncle was in de Valera's cabinet and the former has some fascinating photos. I'll take his word for it over the official wiki thing.
We are in agreement that anti-British sentiment was the reason and I don't know what you're arguing about.
Dunyain buddy, I dont think you want look up what the British upper class was getting up to in the 30s
That isn't what the Wikipedia article says.
But it definitely refutes your argument the Irish govt of that time was motivated by any first principled stand against genocide due to their own history. And there is nothing to suggest what is going on today is either.
Clearly, anti-British animus and standard xenophobia better describes their positions, then and now.
First of all, while you get individual racists/xenophobes everywhere, the Irish people and its government as a whole aren't xenophobic. and your claim is patently absurd.
Secondly, you're the last person who should be accusing anyone else of such things, trust me on that one.
First of all, while you get individual racists/xenophobes everywhere, the Irish people and its government as a whole aren't xenophobic. and your claim is patently absurd.
Secondly, you're the last person who should be accusing anyone else of such things, trust me on that one.
I am not singling out Ireland as particularly racist/xenophobic. But I think Jalfrezi's position is clearly not accurate either, which is the point I was making.
If you want to argue that the Wikipedia history of Ireland contains a lot of false British propaganda, I cant really say anything about that; as this is way outside any knowledge I have. But I am pessimistic that is actually the case.
And in hindsight I think we can all say there was probably enough information available about Hitler and Nazi Germany by May 1945 that I think it would have been fine to skip offering official condolences for Hitler's death.
You're not aware of how little coverage in the media and in schools here in the UK the Famine has had. The reason for that is the same for why the Transatlantic Slave Trade was never mentioned until recently.
You should be able to figure out why that is, and what that means for the reliability of mainstream media sources on some topics.
I am not singling out Ireland as particularly racist/xenophobic. But I think Jalfrezi's position is clearly not accurate either, which is the point I was making. If you want to argue that the Wikipedia history of Ireland contains a lot of false British propaganda, I cant really say anything about that; as this is way outside any knowledge I have. But I am pessimistic that is
Yeah if you can't trust an Orange member of the UK House of Lords on Ireland and De Valera, then who can you trust eh? You mentioned xenophobia. I simply disagree with you on this as an Irish person living in Ireland.
And in hindsight I think we can all say there was probably enough information available about Hitler and Nazi Germany by May 1945 that I think it would have been fine to skip offering official condolences for Hitler's death.
Well again we were officially neutral and the German Minister, Eduard Hempel wasn't a Nazi, nor had any interest in the ideology and was in Ireland since 1937
https://www.nationalarchives.ie/topics/A...
This is lengthy but page 07 gives the context.
Shorter read here
Portugal was neutral and flew the Swastika at half mast at the time, so DV paying a visit to a non Nazi minister wasn't that outlandish.
Dev's justification (after receiving a lot of hate mail) was:
"I acted very deliberately in this matter. So long as we retained our diplomatic relations with Germany to have failed to call upon the German representative would have been an act of unpardonable discourtesy to the German nation and to Dr Hempel himself ... I acted correctly and I feel certain wisely," he wrote to Robert Brennan, Irish Minister in Washington.
Yeah if you can't trust an Orange member of the UK House of Lords on Ireland and De Valera, then who can you trust eh? You mentioned xenophobia. I simply disagree with you on this as an Irish person living in Ireland.Well again we were officially neutral and the German Minister, Eduard Hempel wasn't a Nazi, nor had any interest in the ideology and was in Ireland since 1937
I read the shorter link, which seems to suggest he mainly did it to troll the US and Britain, which seems believable. I would recommend that Harris not do anything similar in the next 4 years, or Trump just may decide to make fixing some specific tax loopholes a priority.
Also, I think we can all agree by May 1945 enough was known about Hitler and Nazi Germany that Portugal probably could have passed on flying the Swasktika at half-mast to honor Hitler's death.
I read the shorter link, which seems to suggest he mainly did it to troll the US and Britain, which seems believable. I would recommend that Harris not do anything similar in the next 4 years, or Trump just may decide to make fixing some specific tax loopholes a priority.
Pfft.🙄
Also, I think we can all agree by May 1945 enough was known about Hitler and Nazi Germany that Portugal probably could have passed on flying the Swasktika at half-mast to honor Hitler's death.
Yeah probably. But they always take dives in international football matches anyway, so whaddya expect? Still at least their chickz are hot. 😀
What alternate reality are you living in? The resistance is nothing but bad news for everyone, especially Palestinians. Supporting the resistance is just one many horrible fringe left wing ideas the American electorate thoroughly rejects.If the democrats ever want to win elections again they will have to move away from stupid leftism. There is no young wave coming that s
For the nth time, I will post this poll. 47% of people under 30 who identify as democrats are pro-Palestine, vs. 7% pro-Israel.
Can you explain to me how this is not a wave?
The fact is that the vast majority of people in Gaza are pro-Hamas, and are therefore part of the resistance.
It doesn't matter if the 47% of young democrats are like me and think these people are respectable for being willing to make huge sacrifices to escape indignity... the only thing that matters is that they are going to want to cut off weapons to Israel.
and a ton of people and Dems want M4A but the party isnt about try to make that happen. just like they arent gonna stop doing genocide for profits.
41% of people under 30 thinks the murder of united health care ceo was justified. Should the dems run on allowing vigilante justice?
and a ton of people and Dems want M4A but the party isnt about try to make that happen. just like they arent gonna stop doing genocide for profits.
We'll see how corrupt the system is. The #1 argument against what I'm saying, which is so gross that even the pro-Israel posters in this thread avoid it, is definitely "the Israel lobby simply won't let that happen."
Where is the wave? I see a lot of terminally online individuals who are happy to answer polls and retweet feel good posts, but in real life these people are nowhere to be found. I guess if there isn’t a social media opportunity, they aren’t actually that invested. I live in a coastal liberal enclave and the biggest demonstration I’ve seen was 3 people with 2 signs.
By your accounts, the young people in my area should be rioting.
It was also pointed out that foreign policy is the least important issue for young voters, and that issues like abortion will always be the make or break factor. You don’t seem to have any interest or capability to respond faithfully. Maybe if you repeat your point a third time it will be different.
ya abortion really made or break this last election.
Dems shredded any of their credibility by becoming the party of genocide. good thing for them, they dont care if they win or not.
ya abortion really made or break this last election.
Dems shredded any of their credibility by becoming the party of genocide. good thing for them, they dont care if they win or not.
Sucks to be the Dems I guess. Buckle up for a decade+ of the GOP. Probably the best long term outcome for Gaza.
