Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
I'm not rooting against israel and It's not impossible.
I appreciate inherently decent people here are trying to justify a monstrousity (to themselves as well) by desperately trying to believe it's the only option.
Have a missed the post where you propose a viable option? I'm willing to read it.
"pro-pal" sounding like a threat. It's like, chez, you're either with us entirely or you're against us. And if you're anti-israel you're an anti-semite.
Spoiler
And if you're anti-israel you're an anti-semite.
isnt this the new definition of antisemitism that rafki has posted multiple times? this the definition that schools, governments, and businesses are using at the behest of Israel and its supporters.
Same back at you.
The long hard grind of politics is the option I support. It's going to be tough. Even tougher now then before netanyahu took such a monstrous approach. First step is to stop digging the hole.
No it's not same back to me.
"by desperately trying to believe it's the only option." is my position, with some wiggle. There were 100 little things about the campaign I'd do differently, and probably 80 would come back with intel and I'd say "ok, well I guess I understand now".
For the most part, I have absolutely no issue with destroying all of Hamas. But I don't choose where Hamas hides. They chose, and very strategically (if you want max women and children to die).
"Eliminate Hamas" is the option I choose. Or the Palestinians have to reject them and move on to someone else (which lets be honest, they won't do). Even the Saudies want Hamas gone, so it's not like a wild white priv take either. It's grounded in sound logic.
Thats not a solution either
I want to defeat hamas. Still not a solution.
Re Victor's posts. Bbc confirming usa talking to hamas
Thats not a solution either
I want to defeat hamas. Still not a solution.
Re Victor's posts. Bbc confirming usa talking to hamas
Eliminating Hitler and the Nazis was a perfectly fine solution. I see it the same.
You need someone on the other side negotiating in good faith. With some kind of elected government that actually speaks for the people. And who isn't an internationally recognized terrorist organization.
So I choose that. I was fine negotiating with Arafat back then for example (despite him checking some bad boxes). No problem, relative to these guys. That was about my limit. And he also wasn't really that interested in negotiating. But he was someone you could at least try to work with as a starting point.
the Nazis were perfectly incorporated into the West and maintained important positions in NATO. they were never eliminated. and Hitler just died for sins of the West.
So pro Palestine? No one attempted to end Germany.
The situation isn't very similar imo and good faith has to built. Not assassinating negotiators is a very low bar start
The problem is trying to find "collective" solutions like all Palestine vs all Israel people's should this or that, instead of analyzing which individual has a right to what, which individual is at fault for what.
the Nazis were perfectly incorporated into the West and maintained important positions in NATO. they were never eliminated. and Hitler just died for sins of the West.
Nazis will remain everywhere, in the US, in slavic unions in Russia, but Putinism, or the west, or china, cant match the ideological fanaticism, or the willingness to completely destroy everything to accomplish a rather linear ideological vision.
Basically, every giant country is evil in a major way, and most hunger for the same **** but the nazis took it to a kamikaze level and they were roided up.
Every few years I link to the net worth of the top Hamas guys living outside Gaza. And every few years people realize they're all richer than Taylor Swift. We're talking about many mega billionaires, while Gaza is what it is.
And somehow, it never bothers any of the pro pal guys. It's quite something actually.
This is fairly unlikely to be true in the colorful terms given, since the somewhat imaginative gazillionaire claims originate from the Israeli government and are otherwise unsourced and unsupported.
What is true is that some Hamas leaders got very comfortably rich off international 'aid' money, perhaps mostly Qatari and US-via-UN. The 'resistance' is indeed a racket and a con. Then again, several Hamas leaders -- Issa, Deif, Haniyeh and Sinwar -- have lately found themselves dead, so it's not a risk-free career, even though Israel characteristically released Sinwar back into the wild despite having given him four life terms, which was frankly asking for trouble. Releasing prisoners, or exchanging hostages if you like, on anything other than a one-for-one basis is a bad idea, yet the Israelis went for over 1,000-to-1 on that occasion, presumably due to their racial assumptions on the relative values of lives.
Weak as it is, NI is a closer analogy than hitler
When people isnt on knowing the outcome/good faith before doing the politcs i do imagine arguing with thatcher's lot that we should negotiate because it will end with Paisley and McGuinness forming a bond that brought peace. They would have had us committed.
Europe was virulently antisemitic and murderous towards Jews for centuries.
This is fairly unlikely to be true in the colorful terms given, since the somewhat imaginative gazillionaire claims originate from the Israeli government and are otherwise unsourced and unsupported.
What is true is that some Hamas leaders got very comfortably rich off international 'aid' moneylol the net worth of the top Hamas guys isn't even a point of contention. This is like saying Israel never offered land for peace. On some things I won't even debate a person. So silly.
Weak as it is, NI is a closer analogy than hitler
When people isnt on knowing the outcome/good faith before doing the politcs i do imagine arguing with thatcher's lot that we should negotiate because it will end with Paisley and McGuinness forming a bond that brought peace. They would have had us committed.
Yes I agree and I've often cited NI as an example of unreconcilable differences being partially reconciled - a way forward. You've missed the context of my reply.
Some/most of Europe probably. I know the UK gave refuge to many tens of thousands of Polish and Russian Jews fleeing pogroms around the turn of the 19th/20th centuries. That's not to say there wasn't antisemitism here then of course, but they did form a bedrock of Jewish communities that are still present and thriving now in many of the same areas, 130 years later.
I wasn't comparing NI and Hitler as useful analogies to I/P. I was saying that Clinton may have found the complexities of I/P much harder to understand than NI.
lol the net worth of the top Hamas guys isn't even a point of contention. This is like saying Israel never offered land for peace.
Not a point of contention? Your only source is the hasbara. And I don't suppose you find the wealth of Israeli leaders to be disqualifying. And Israel never offered land for peace to the Palestinians.
