Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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33310 Replies
Orwell constantly rolling in his grave over the people who quote him. I bet even Luciom quotes him.
Donald,
Israel threw everything they have at the place for a year and turned the place into a parking lot. Shaking your fists at the sky isn't going to create a new outcome.
But you have no idea what Israel has.
2 years ago if you told someone about Israel’s pager attack, they would have laughed in your face and told you that you’re watching too many movies.
Furthermore, Israel has always fought with one hand tied behind its back, for various reasons.
The likely reason that this won’t change anything, is that Hamas doesn’t care if more Palestinians die.
Smotrich says the West Bank operation will be like Gaza.
“They too will be uninhabitable ruins. Their residents will be forced to migrate and seek a new life in other countries.”
But it's not ethnic cleansing.
The fact that these people thought that derailing Biden/Harris in favor of Trump was a good idea shows you how little they understand about the situation.
The only way this was possible was if they were completely controlled by misinformation and propaganda.
I'm old enough to remember that Biden was virtually the same.
Look, you are not interrogating the reports, which is an absolute must in an environment where information is militarized.
In the articles you listed I found just one reference to a source of the information: the Israeli embassy. No bank is identified where they've stashed billions of dollars -- no specific fact on luxury that can be checked. There's a picture of a son on a nice bed, but not linkage of his real estate holdings to Qatari or Iranian donations. There's a picture of guys on a plane. Maybe it's from a debauched weekend, or maybe they flew off to confer with Iran.
Hamas leaders having $3 billion apiece is a claim to be checked, not a fact. The Israeli government would say that both if they were or weren't fabulously rich, so that claim is far from definitive. Consult the book Dark Money by Jane Mayer for an example of how a money trail is really proven. It is very involved.
Israel just lies about where money goes anyway.
(Hamas heroically freed this man thankfully)
Look, you are not interrogating the reports, which is an absolute must in an environment where information is militarized.
In the articles you listed I found just one reference to a source of the information: the Israeli embassy. No bank is identified where they've stashed billions of dollars -- no specific fact on luxury that can be checked. There's a picture of a son on a nice bed, but not linkage of his real estate holdings to Qatari or Iranian donations. There's a picture of guys on a plane.
Bill, you know full well that what you want here as a burden of proof is impossible.
Accept that you have been dunked on, and move on. The mechanisms detailed here are sufficient to syphon vast fortunes. And they have! You will simply have to accept that nobody is going to bring you the banking statements of guys hiding vast fortunes in crypto for example. That's life. Sometimes you dunk, sometimes you get dunked on. Today was the latter.
Donald,
Israel threw everything they have at the place for a year and turned the place into a parking lot. Shaking your fists at the sky isn't going to create a new outcome.
We can have differing opinions on whether this type of "diplomacy" is going to be very effective. But I think Trump realizes neither his plan or the Arab plan* can move forward as long as Hamas is holding hostages/bodies. So in his mind first order of business is getting all the hostages back. Then we can move forward.
Of course he doesn't really care if Hamas survives or not (probably prefers not). Whereas Hamas main priority is self preservation, which means holding onto hostages pretty much indefinitely, and trying to force the rest of the world to agree to go back to how things were pre 10/7. At this point Hamas really is the big problem keeping things from moving forward, because Israel is refusing to entertain any future (other than Palestinians living in tents and riding donkeys around a shattered city) Hamas is involved in.
*Ironically, the Israeli plan of destroying everything so the people have to leave is the only one that is really viable right now.
Nonsense. Yes, it's hard to get the evidence. But a little more proof than "the embassy says so" is required for anyone with a skeptical bone in their body.
Keep in mind this guy blindly accepts every unsubstantiated Juan Cole article. So his skepticism has less to do with any sincere attempt at truth seeking, and more just believing stuff that reinforces his pre-existing worldview.
Consult the book Dark Money by Jane Mayer for an example of how a money trail is really proven. It is very involved.
On this topic the DOGE team and others are investigating some of the USAID money trail, and it is wild trying to follow this sordid money laundering scheme. There is one investigation in particular where it appears Democrats completely made up a fake non profit in 2023, that has never actually done anything, and right before Biden left office dumped tens of billions into it. And so far no one can figure out where the money actually went.
We can have differing opinions on whether this type of "diplomacy" is going to be very effective. But I think Trump realizes neither his plan or the Arab plan* can move forward as long as Hamas is holding hostages/bodies. So in his mind first order of business is getting all the hostages back. Then we can move forward.
Of course he doesn't really care if Hamas survives or not (probably prefers not). Whereas Hamas main priority is self preservation, which means holding onto hostages pretty muc
you do realize that stage 2 of the ceasefire deal involves Hamas stepping down from governing the Gaza strip? the very same stage 2 that Israel refuses to advance to.
you do realize that stage 2 of the ceasefire deal involves Hamas stepping down from governing the Gaza strip? the very same stage 2 that Israel refuses to advance to.
Israel demands Hamas to be removed completely. Disbanded, weapons handed in, leaders into exile.
Hamas proposed "compromise" is some future where they basically become Hezbollah, where there is a powerless civilian govt but they are a foreign funded and supplied paramilitary with all the real power. Who knows how sincere they are even in this. But Israel says even Hamas compromise is a non starter.
Of course between you and I, I think the Netanyahu govt just wants to keep destroying Gaza and the WB so people leave. And Hamas gives them a perfect cover to do this. Could you imagine if Hamas actually just gave back all the hostages and disbanded how much international pressure Netanyahu would be under to stop belligerence so the international community could come in and begin rebuilding.
At this point if you told me Hamas was run by Mossad, I wouldn't dismiss this possibility out of hand.
Could you imagine if Hamas actually just gave back all the hostages and disbanded how much international pressure Netanyahu would be under to stop belligerence so the international community could come in and begin rebuilding.
Israel just said they were going to starve 1.5 million people after 15 months of genocide. I think Israel could kill the families of the international community and they would still support it. there is literally nothing Israel could ever do for international pressure to matter.
Israel demands Hamas to be removed completely. Disbanded, weapons handed in, leaders into exile.
glad that we agree that they arent following the terms of the ceasefire. and if this is what they want, I am pretty sure that stage 2 is for negotiating it.
Of course between you and I, I think the Netanyahu govt just wants to keep destroying Gaza and the WB so people leave.
yes, they are doing the thing that they have told us they needed to do for over 100 years.
None for nothing, maybe Israel should go after these Hamas billionaires instead of bombing schools and refugee tents?
None for nothing, maybe Israel should go after these Hamas billionaires instead of bombing schools and refugee tents?
Well the problem is the sheeple like yourself endlessly bleat about evil AIPAC, and completely ignore that Qatar is the one hosting all these billionaires and funding everything. And Israeli is definitely under strict orders from the US govt to not touch Qatar or the Hamas billionaires residing there.
I really cant imagine the cognitive dissonance of being a so called progressive like yourself, endlessly harping on AIPAC, and being so willfully agnostic about Qatari influence peddling throughout the world, especially in the US. It just shows how controlled progressives really are, and how fake the progressive movement its.
Qatar is home to the largest US air force base in the Middle East (West Asia). they are on the same side as Israel.
Qatar is home to the largest US air force base in the Middle East (West Asia). they are on the same side as Israel.
And Qatar hosts and funds Hamas. So by this logic the US, Israel, Qatar and Hamas are all on the same side.
Maybe Hamas really is a Mossad operation and the goal of everyone is to destroy rhe West Bank and Gaza and relocate Palestinians.
The Israeli soldiers ever killed Sinwar didn’t even know it was him until they went to collect the body the next day. Maybe he was Mossad and killing him was accidental.
But you have no idea what Israel has.
2 years ago if you told someone about Israel’s pager attack, they would have laughed in your face and told you that you’re watching too many movies.
Furthermore, Israel has always fought with one hand tied behind its back, for various reasons.
The likely reason that this won’t change anything, is that Hamas doesn’t care if more Palestinians die.
Yeah, Israel is just sitting on some space lasers they've refused to unleash yet. I doubt it.
Your last paragraph is why it's not going to work. Hamas dgaf and is daring Israel to "finish the job".
Well the problem is the sheeple like yourself endlessly bleat about evil AIPAC, and completely ignore that Qatar is the one hosting all these billionaires and funding everything.
lol, the only one ignoring these alleged Hamas billionaires is Bibi and the IDF. Blow up some ****ing Hamas yachts, hell even the Columbia kids could be on board with that.
I really cant imagine the cognitive dissonance of being a so called progressive like yourself, endlessly harping on AIPAC,...
AIPAC? Genuinely not sure if you're confusing me with some other poster, or too intellectually lazy to care, or both.
