Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
do you understand the -35% depicted is impossible to be true? do you understand why? that's the equivalent of covid models telling you 100M people would have died in the USA
I highly doubt this is real, or even has a real methodology. But in the off chance it is real, I would love to see the methodology used to derive that graph.
This is in response to Netanyahu recently publicly recognizing the Armenian genocide in a podcast. Which he didn't even really do. I am paraphrasing, but basically the host asked him why he has never recognized it, and he said something along the lines of, "we are talking about it now, so I just did." And at this point it isn't even clear if this is real or fake. Israel has
The new measures affect trade and shipping, if implemented. Airline flights are not affected and the ban on Israeli military or official aircraft has actually been in place since late 2023, they're just re-announcing it. It's nothing to do with Turkish touchiness over the Armenian genocide, but it is to do with regional power rivalry and Israel focusing against Turkey while Iran is less of a preoccupation. The Turks may also be annoyed by an Israeli commando raid to demolish a Turkish surveillance post in Syria a couple of days ago.
This is in response to Netanyahu recently publicly recognizing the Armenian genocide in a podcast. Which he didn't even really do. I am paraphrasing, but basically the host asked him why he has never recognized it, and he said something along the lines of, "we are talking about it now, so I just did." And at this point it isn't even clear if this is real or fake. Israel has
Hello
Is Türkiye pretty much everything Israel is accused of?
Would you be able to explain this to me?
Hello
Is Türkiye pretty much everything Israel is accused of?
Would you be able to explain this to me?
Presumably the suggestion is that Turkey is a genocidal theocracy. But the Armenian genocide was over a century ago, Ataturk was a secular dictator and the theocratic element has only come to the fore under Erdogan. The conflict with the Kurdish PKK cost about 40,000 lives over 40 years, but the PKK threw in the towel and disbanded this year, to advance Kurdish rights democratically.
Turkey, like Israel, does have regional-power ambitions, which is why the two regimes are starting to annoy each other and strike poses. But Israel will have to be careful because Turkey is a NATO member.
That's a very slight stretch, but Carlson did host the neo-Nazi nobody Darryl Cooper on his podcast, wrongly introducing Cooper as 'the best and most honest popular historian in the United States' -- the man isn't even an historian, just another loopy far-right podcaster -- and Cooper did of course make duly loopy, and false, pro-Hitler and anti-Churchill claims.
That's a very slight stretch, but Carlson did host the neo-Nazi nobody Darryl Cooper on his podcast, wrongly introducing Cooper as 'the best and most honest popular historian in the United States' -- the man isn't even an historian, just another loopy far-right podcaster -- and Cooper did of course make duly loopy, and false, pro-Hitler and anti-Churchill claims.
Cooper is not pro hitler. He is on record saying he is not a holocaust denier.
No longer do folks buy the whole “coded language” or if somebody criticizes Churchill they are somehow pro Hitler. That’s in part why the left got swept in the 2024 US elections….due to false accusations of racism. People are tired of cancel culture.
Btw I don’t agree with Cooper’s narrative on Churchill. And I don’t agree with people who support Netanyahu but not every pro Netanyahu person is anti Muslim. What you or Luciom view as “pro Hitler” or close to pro Hitler of course is nowhere near actually being pro Hitler.
Winston Churchill lost in 1945 UK election. Were all those Brit’s antisemites? Well by default they all must be pro Hitler, I suppose.?
Well known Pro Israel people like Ben Shapiro are openly anti Muslim. They are on an entirely different level of bigotry compared to someone like Cooper….difference is Neo cons give mainstream support to the Shapiros of the world. Shapiro openly says most Muslims are extremist. But if somebody tries to “get” somebody like Cooper they have to basically invent the View that he is a bigot by piecing together flimsy pieces of what they believe is evidence. Now of course the main part of the discussion is Tucker Carlson. And it’s really interesting that you’re trying to get Carlson by going after one of his guests. Carlson as a journalist he is going to interview all different types of people. You’re making a mountain out of a molehill with regards to Carlson giving credit to Cooper as an accomplished historian.
I’m glad that Carlson has tens of millions of followers. People like him, Candace Owens, Glenn Greenwald, and alternative media in general are crushing the mainstream media.
Carlson brings on a diverse group of people to speak on his platform, including numerous Jews, like Jeffrey Sachs, Glen Greenwald , Dave Smith and others ….how often does Ben Shapiro platform Muslims?
Has Ben Shapiro ever said he likes Islam like Carlson says he likes Judaism?
In short there is nothing there to show Carlson being an antisemite or some kind of a far right kook.
Cooper is not pro hitler. He is on record saying he is not a holocaust denier.
No longer do folks buy the whole “coded language” or if somebody criticizes Churchill they are somehow pro Hitler. That’s in part why the left got swept in the 2024 US elections….due to false accusations of racism. People are tired of cancel culture.
Don't be daft. He's just sorry he got caught.
do you understand the -35% depicted is impossible to be true? do you understand why? that's the equivalent of covid models telling you 100M people would have died in the USA
It’s coming from a reputable source. Breaking points is far more reputable than a lot of the mainstream media has …breaking points has two hosts one left-wing one right wing dissecting various political information.
Anyways it’s really interesting to see how the pro Netanyahu people react to information. It’s usually “oh this could never be true, oh it’s straight from Hamas.”
We can all recall that quite a few times in response to detailed arguments criticizing the IDF …that the pro Netanyahu people respond to it with one word or a one sentence with no context. And hope that it all gets brushed under the rug. Sure there are some poor arguments from critics of the IDF, but it’s noticeable that some of the pro Netanyahu people in this thread will sweep under the rug the well thought out detailed arguments criticizing the IDF. Especially those that are straight from Israel.
And then sometimes the pro Netanyahu are openly anti-Muslim. Openly associating negative words with things like Islam or Muslims. And then at the same time completely fabricating the idea that some critic of the IDF is anti-Jewish. Like they have no evidence of it so what they do is they put together what they believe is “coded language” or evidence of racism. It’s just really lazy and most people simply don’t buy it. Hence the fact that much of the world‘s population is now against the Netanyahu administration
And now we have this, this is straight from the IDF admitting that the great majority of the casualties in Gaza are civilians.
“Israeli army database suggests at least 83% of Gaza dead were civilians”
Figures obtained from the classified database — which records the deaths of militants from Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) — contradict by a huge margin the public statements of Israeli army and government officials throughout the war, which have generally claimed a 1:1 or 2:1 ratio of civilian to militant casualties. Instead, the classified data backs up the findings of several studies suggesting Israel’s bombardment of Gaza has killed civilians at a rate with few parallels in modern warfare.
Now are there actual antisemites with regards to the critics of Netanyahu. There are, but that number is minuscule and it hails in comparison to the normalization of anti-Muslim bigotry by the elements of the pro Israel side. Pro Netanyahu People like Ben Shapiro or Mark Levin.
There’s also clearly much more of a nuanced educational approach by the critics of Netanyahu. And that includes groups of people who are pro Israel, who are Zionists, but who are disgusted by Netanyahu administration.
Don't be daft. He's just sorry he got caught.
Is that Richey Torres the Democrat Congress man bought and paid for by the Israeli lobby? The same Torres who was soundly called out as a shill for Netanyahu by the Jewish comedian Adam Friedland
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h4LPgb9YyN...
You’re simply repeating yourself. Nothing has been proven to show either Carlson or Cooper being a holocaust denier. you want to go down this road? It’s just sad.
Oh well I’m glad the overwhelming majority of people including Jews, Muslims and Christians are not buying this. Hence the tens of millions of followers that Carlson has.
this is graphic etc: https://x.com/Osint613/status/1961449989...
its weird that we were told that all Hamas wanted to do was kill and rape Jews and take them hostage when these 2 boys were not killed. we all know if Israel attacked a Palestinian father that they would make sure all of the children were slaughtered as well.
About time to release the hostages and surrender weapons. FAFO
That's a very slight stretch, but Carlson did host the neo-Nazi nobody Darryl Cooper on his podcast, wrongly introducing Cooper as 'the best and most honest popular historian in the United States' -- the man isn't even an historian, just another loopy far-right podcaster -- and Cooper did of course make duly loopy, and false, pro-Hitler and anti-Churchill claims.
he hosted at least 6 other people who "were just asking questions" and "asked questions" about whether Churchill was the good guy or the bad guy in the war against Germany (notice this has nothing to do with a lot of other much more reasonable criticism of Churchill, unrelated to the war effort to defy nazist germany)
It’s coming from a reputable source. Breaking points is far more reputable than a lot of the mainstream media has …breaking points has two hosts one left-wing one right wing dissecting various political information.Anyways it’s really interesting to see how the pro Netanyahu people react to information. It’s usually “oh this could never be true, oh
man i am not sure you understand what -35% in life expectancy means. Actually i am sure you don't understand what it does mean.
Btw the IDF said something very different: it said *at least 17% were confirmed hamas operatives* . I already answered about the rest: everyone who at any point willingingly helped hamas operatives about ANYTHING deserve to die as well.
Do you agree that if you repair an hamas vehicle (knowing it is an hamas vehicle) you should be assassinated as a material supporter of terrorism? do you agree that if you sell food to a family YOU KNOW helps hamas keeping hostages, you deserve death? do you agree that if you tend the wounds of any hamas operative you deserve death?
reports say that Israel just assassinated the Houthi terrorist leader and some other people at the top of the hierarchy of the Houthi terrorist group.
As usual, Israel helps the world with his military efforts and we are all in debt to Israel and should support their efforts financially a lot more than we do: they are doing our job for us.
man i am not sure you understand what -35% in life expectancy means. Actually i am sure you don't understand what it does mean.Btw the IDF said something very different: it said *at least 17% were confirmed hamas operatives* . I already answered about the rest: everyone who at any point willingingly helped hamas operatives about ANYTHING deserve to die as well.Do you agree that
all due respect, you have not refuted the material shown from the breaking points link. Or the plethora of other sources, including Jewish human rights organizations in Israel, saying that there is a genocide in Gaza.
So if a seven-year-old girl gives tea to a Hamas soldier….oh boy
Hamas Hamas Hamas …. It is brought up almost all the time along with October 7 by the pro Netanyahu people. These points have been responded to many different times by both Palestinian supporters and Zionists alike as being quite easy to address. People need to look into the origins of Hamas and the entire Israel Palestine conflict as a whole when they start bringing up Hamas. Such as Israel financing Hamas in its early days. As a bul work against the more secular PLO…. And it’s really interesting your type of reasoning. Ok the IDF grew out of what many would call terrorist organizations, such as the Irgun who committed what you would call terrorist acts against British civilians prior to the creation of Israel in 1948. organizations without access to sophisticated military weaponry will do like it or not engage in unconventional military methods . Like the IRA, or even the early American revolutionaries.
Of course as always October 7 needs to be investigated thoroughly. And I believe that folks like you are downplaying the possibility of any sort of rogue Israeli official allowing the attack to occur. At the very least, it was a horrible failure of intelligence to epic proportions, considering the strength and capabilities of the Mossad and the IDF.
Is Hamas filled with far right wing conservative religious people??? Yes they are and plenty of their Muslim members have ideologies I don’t like and a lot of people in the west don’t like. We can say the same thing about plenty of the Israeli Jewish IDF soldiers, as well as the far right wing Jews in the Israeli government some of them in very powerful positions. Some of whom have said “there’s no such thing as an innocent Palestinians that all Palestinians are targets”, including children. See what was done there. Just using the same logic you’re using.
I’m neither Palestinian or Israeli . I’m an American citizen and for my government to give money to the Netanyahu administration is morally wrong. I don’t know about you, but I am under no obligation to support the government in Gaza or the government in Tel Aviv. And I do not support either. You are arguing the narrative of the Netanyahu administration. And people in Israel who support Netanyahu or anywhere in the world who support Netanyahu..People outside of that realm are under no obligation to agree with your ideology or your conclusions. And they’re not under any obligation to agree with my conclusion’s either.
It is interesting though that when we look at the war in Iraq when America invaded Iraq in 2003. You might recall the situation involving Jessica Lynch. She was in fact captured by Iraqi soldiers and brought to an Iraqi hospital. Guess what the Iraqi doctors gave her medical assistance.Im inclined to respect Arabs and their history, which includes Jews and Muslims getting along wonderfully also it has been shown now by numerous sources that the war in Gaza is brutally violent in terms of modern war that is coming from Israel source you can no longer say that it is coming from outside of Israel. That’s what the 972 magazine showed your response to that is not cutting it. Clearly there is a gigantic difference when we compare America’s invasion and occupation of Iraq to Israel’s invasion and occupation of Gaza. And that is not a criticism of all Israeli people. It is a criticism of the Netanyahu administration , the IDF and their collaborators
reports say that Israel just assassinated the Houthi terrorist leader and some other people at the top of the hierarchy of the Houthi terrorist group.
As usual, Israel helps the world with his military efforts and we are all in debt to Israel and should support their efforts financially a lot more than we do: they are doing our job for us.
The Houthis deny that the targeted leaders were killed. They may be lying or minimising, but previous strikes have not held back Houthi activity as much as was hoped. Still, there will probably be more strikes.
Twitter abuzz with news that 4 IDF rape murderers were captured. The Ironic part is that the people who supposedly "hate Jews" hope they are still alive. And the supporters of the Jewish Supremacist state hope they got Hannibaled.
Presumably the suggestion is that Turkey is a genocidal theocracy. But the Armenian genocide was over a century ago, Ataturk was a secular dictator and the theocratic element has only come to the fore under Erdogan. The conflict with the Kurdish PKK cost about 40,000 lives over 40 years, but the PKK threw in the towel and disbanded this year, to advance Kurdish rights democrati
No, the assumption is not that Turkey is a genocidal theocracy. Turkey was very much a ethnonationalist secular movement under the Young Turks and then Ataturk; and didn't shift towards a theocracy until recently under Erdogan.
And the Armenian genocide was one of 3 major genocides that were all orders of magnitude deadlier than what is going on with the Palestinians, the other two being Assyrian and Greek. And the current conflict with Kurds you noted, which is on par with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in scope.
And Turkey actually has its own version of the West Bank too, northern Cyprus, which it has held illegally for 50 years, with no shits given by anyone.
Again, Turkey is pretty much everything Israel is accused of being. With the difference no shits are given, demonstrating just how bad faith most of the outrage over Israel is, motivated mainly by ulterior motives.
The Houthis deny that the targeted leaders were killed. They may be lying or minimising, but previous strikes have not held back Houthi activity as much as was hoped. Still, there will probably be more strikes.
Israel intelligence thinks the entire upper echelon of Houthi leadership was wiped out. But as you state, 10 (or whatever number) new drugged out homicidal religious fanatics will just take their place. And nothing will change.
If Israel actually wants to enact regime change, they probably need to attack all the oil fields and cause the economy to collapse, which may lead toward civil war and regime change. But this would cause so much suffering and loss of life, no one really wants this.
I dont think there is actually any expectation that counter-attacking the Houthis will affect their behavior one way or another. They are literally a death cult who are completely indifferent to the well-being of all 60 million Yemenis. At least in this life, as they are religious fanatics who believe suffering and dying for Allah now will guarantee rewards in the afterlife.
Counter-attacking the Houthis is more about projecting will/strength/deadly capability and encouraging deterrence to other actors in the ME who are more rational and less psychotic than the Houthis.
That's a very slight stretch, but Carlson did host the neo-Nazi nobody Darryl Cooper on his podcast, wrongly introducing Cooper as 'the best and most honest popular historian in the United States' -- the man isn't even an historian, just another loopy far-right podcaster -- and Cooper did of course make duly loopy, and false, pro-Hitler and anti-Churchill claims.
Tucker has been in the spotlight for decades; from CNN to Fox News to doing his own media. And his public facing persona has changed a lot over the years. Tucker reinventing himself as an antisemite is fairly recent, mostly the last 2 years.
(This paragraph is mostly for Knights). So if you go back in time there is mountains of evidence he wasn't overtly antisemitic for most of his career, but that doesn't mean he isn't now. When talking about Tucker, I think it is important to keep in mind the CNN bow-tie Crossfire Tucker is nothing like his current persona.
However, the last 2 years there has been a consistent pattern of what you would call classic right wing antisemitism, coupled with him starting to get religious (in a Dark Ages type of way), which was never the case for most of his career. You can go look at his recent podcasts (you dont even have to listen to them, just look at the guests and topics); and it is extremely telling. Very much focused on antisemitism, religion and conspiracies.
I follow and listen to both Cooper and Tucker (I dont consume all their media, but I am familiar with both). I actually wouldn't even say Cooper is more antisemitic than Tucker. Cooper's WWII revisionism (which you mentioned) is more egregious than any of his anti-Israel or anti-Jewish takes (which there are plenty, I just find Tucker to be more dishonest and malicious).
Cooper actually pushes back against a lot of the populist far right rhetoric, especially the racism and anti-immigration; which this current iteration of Tucker embraces.
he hosted at least 6 other people who "were just asking questions" and "asked questions" about whether Churchill was the good guy or the bad guy in the war against Germany (notice this has nothing to do with a lot of other much more reasonable criticism of Churchill, unrelated to the war effort to defy nazist germany)
Missed this post the first time around. As Lucium states, if you look at all the interviews Tucker has done the last year or so you see a pretty consistent pattern of malicious, anti-historical, anti-liberal, pro-Russia, pro-Iran, anti-semitic content. That goes far beyond one questionable guest.
Twitter abuzz with news that 4 IDF rape murderers were captured. The Ironic part is that the people who supposedly "hate Jews" hope they are still alive. And the supporters of the Jewish Supremacist state hope they got Hannibaled.
Just came here to post this irony.
The ironies keep piling up for the pro-Israel crowd. First the only country with Western values in the Middle East is reduced to might-makes-right arguments (dismissed by the founder of the Western tradition, Plato, circa 380 BC) and red herrings. Now, the country with respect for human life is hoping their soldiers are killed by their own surveillance drones.
