Israel/Palestine thread

The Western left keeps reiterating how there needs to be a ceasefire, but they kind of just gloss over the part that Hamas refuses to back down from any of their maximalist demands. They demand that Israel leave and they demand conditions that let them retain military control of Gaza and will let them smuggle in weapons for the next attack. And they are showing no inclination the majority of the Israeli hostages will ever be returned, probably because they are dead, buried and forgotten in some tunnel, and Hamas doesn't even know where they are.

And the West has zero leverage over Hamas, because they have already signaled they will give Hamas whatever it wants unconditionally, and they are working on Israel to make it happen.

So given this, how do we have a ceasefire, unless Israel just gives in to their maximalist demands? Which means Gaza just goes back to what it has been the last 15 years?

Dont you guys want things to actually move forward and get better? How does that happen if you just unconditionally give in to the demands of the people who want the status quo to remain?

Its not for hamas. The ceasefire we're demanding is for the Palestinian people.

Ther's nothing good on the horizon. Netanyahu has made it so much worse that 'going backwards' is a prerequisite for any hope of progress.

So you acknowledge the West has zero leverage over Hamas, and as such the West is demanding a unilateral Israeli ceasefire on Hamas terms; and in fact giving Hamas leverage to wait out Israel and not make any concessions?

And I would push back that it is Netanyahu's fault there is no hope for future progress of Palestinians. If the UK and other Western nations got its way, Israel would have had a very limited response to 10/7, and we would have been back to the status quo a long time ago, with Hamas retaining an iron grip on Gaza and weapons flowing in unchecked through smuggling tunnels.

As long as Hamas remains in charge with no check on weapons smuggled in there was never any hope for any Palestinian future regardless of how Israel responded.

Israel's response damaged the relationship between Israel and the rest of the world, which could have downstream effects for Israel. But the Palestinian future was always going to be hopeless, because the rest of the world has been so willing to unconditionally accede to Hamas demands.

The only future for the Palestinian people is in a demilitarized Gaza; so I would say Israel is the lone nation working for their long term future. Of course that is not Israel's goal, but it is a side effect of Israel's goal, which is its own long term security future.

It's nothign to do with hamas.

Nothing justifed netanyahu's monstrous actions aganst the Palistinian people. They need to stop.

I don't think we are in the position to really grasp just how much hatred is there between the two. It's been there for very long and the degree at which they will go to demonstrate that is real. They hate each other. And it just isn't going to get settled.

I dont begin to underestimate how difficult it is. A ceasefire is not a solution. It's just ending something that should have been unthinkable.

I mean, I get your point but it appears that a large percentage of folks in Israel are perfectly pleased with how Bibi is handling this genocide. Hamas has also fired literally 5 figures of rockets that weren't fire crackers literally in the hopes to just to get a hard on off of killing anything that moves. It all seems pretty well thought out. The attempt at softening this war as it being just a few bad apples on both sides just isn't accurate. They want this fight.

This is not true. Israel had widespread support, but proved they were incapable of conducting a professional campaign so they lost that support.

You say the West lacks leverage over Hamas, but fail to take into account that Israel lacks the ability to take out Hamas without an outright genocide which is a nonstarter. So where does that leave Israel?

Death is Life

That is the message Islamists are selling. And the Palestinian people are buying it. That is why there is no shortage of volunteers generationally lining up to die as a shahid fighting Jews; with no reasonable worldly objective to be found.

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2024/07/chica...

This actually happened in Chicago, but it is an Imam telling a bunch of kids their number one goal in life should be to die as a Muslim and go to paradise. How this kind of thinking is being actualized in the world (especially in Palestinian territories) is just so ****ed up on so many levels. Yet this is the type of thinking the West is willing to appease at all costs, so here we are.

Hamas has backed down from a lot of their demands. for months they wanted a full prisoner/hostage swap. now they are willing to allow Israel to retain large amounts of hostages and child torture subjects.

Gaza is screwed. Totally destroyed and Israel probably going to stay in control of all border crossings.

seems that way but remember the French killed millions of Algerians on their way out. Brits killed millions of Indians. USA and France killed millions of Vietnamese. USA killed millions of Koreans.

but they all left.

Leaving meant thousands of miles of buffer between them and the people they had decimated though. Not so much in this case.

If the Palestinians insist on fighting to get their land back, they will eventually but it's going to take a long time and now not being able to imports weapons and raw materials as easily they are probably going to rely on some other countries actively participating. Might be awhile to get the right mix of regional leaders.
Wish they would just give it up and make the best of what they have. If they used all the rebuilding money to get schools going I bet scholarships for international universities would be dime a dozen. Maybe outsource their govt to Singapore. Place would look very different in 2 generations.

millions stayed behind in each case.

new favorite journalist

Those countries left but also left behind millions of soldiers?

Not Korea I guess

hmm

Your position is completely genocidal. Israeli's aren't going anywhere. The Arabs and Europeans threw them out of their lands, and isn't allowing them back. Israel is their home and has been for generations.

If it is going to be a fight to the death, all the Palestinians will die. Now maybe that is what they want, because in their opinion this is what Allah commands and they will enter paradise. But if the Palestinian position is, "Our God versus yours, and it is going to be a fight to the death" at some point Israel will just say ok.

Of course it doesn't have to get that far. If the Western countries just turn off the aid tap and allow the Palestinians to emigrate, everyone can move on.

Unless you subscribe to the holy dirt argument, in which case the Jewish case is just as valid as the Muslim one. So the only way the Holy Dirt argument works is if you just acknowledge you are a Muslim supremacist and an antisemite.

no I am saying the West will eventually turn off the aid tap to the genocidal Israeli regime and things will normalize. they arent going to kill all of the Jews. they arent genocidal Westerners lol.

Where are you getting the bolded from?

lots of civilian casualties in the occupied Golan Heights. Hezbollah denies it was them.

Yes. Major rocket attack. The target was kids playing soccer at a park. Tons of casualties. And a further barrage of rockets aimed at the rescue vehicles trying to evacuate casualties. Whoever did it has basically declared total war against Israel, and demonstrated they will follow no rules of engagement at all.

On top of this there was a rocket attack at a some sort of gas field, which Israel intercepted completely. Which Israel has made clear is a major red line not to cross. So whoever did it has just decided they want a total war.