Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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It is interesting how one of the hostages (Hersh Goldberg-Polin) that was found murdered was an American dual citizen, who had already had one of his hands blown off on 10/7 throwing out grenades that Hamas was throwing into a bomb shelter a group of Jews were trying to hide in during the 10/7 Nova festival massacre. Real heroic ****.
What makes this tragic case particularly interesting, on top of his heroism*, was he was someone whom Trump and Biden have mentioned; and whose parents were even
Maybe this is wrong or a simplistic take, but my hunch is that some of the current acquiescence towards Hamas is a desperate attempt to “end” the conflict, at least temporarily, before the election. I think once in office, the Harris team will be very supportive of Israel.
Who is expecting or accepting this? Even if I was extremely anti-Israel and just cared for the Palestinian people I’d want Hamas gone. Not like Hamas is all that good to its people.
A lot of people. I had dinner with a coworker earlier this week. White American navy vet, who works a white collar job, for some context. He was adamant that Hamas is strictly a governing body and has no connections to terrorism. A lot of people who have been carefully following this conflict, or so they think, do not share your perspective on Hamas and the Palestinian’s situation.
so ou are against any form of ceasefire , because they are incompatible with hamas being gone for good?
what's your proposal to eradicate Hamas (and any similar group) forever?
Brother we’ve talked about this like 3 times. Not gonna do it again.
Of course I’m not for any outcome where Hamas gets to exist because 2 years from now we are again talking about Israeli deaths and the never ending amount of innocent Palestinians dying because Hamas started another bullshit war.
A lot of people. I had dinner with a coworker earlier this week. White American navy vet, who works a white collar job, for some context. He was adamant that Hamas is strictly a governing body and has no connections to terrorism. A lot of people who have been carefully following this conflict, or so they think, do not share your perspective on Hamas and the Palestinian’s situation.
Oh boy. Hope that’s the last dinner you have with him.
Brother we’ve talked about this like 3 times. Not gonna do it again.
Of course I’m not for any outcome where Hamas gets to exist because 2 years from now we are again talking about Israeli deaths and the never ending amount of innocent Palestinians dying because Hamas started another bullshit war.
Ok so we are aligned, and i suppose you get the need to enter the west bank in full force as well, given they are starting attacks from there now, correct?
Sounds a bit crazy but I think he’s a good person, just under the influence of some hardcore propaganda. Not that I need to tell you, but Hamas’ tactic of forcing the west to pit logic against our sensibilities is extremely effective.
Ok so we are aligned, and i suppose you get the need to enter the west bank in full force as well, given they are starting attacks from there now, correct?
Sure. Again. You and Phelps have confused criticism of Israel with support of Hamas. I’m simply not in the camp “any who dies to eradicate Hamas is a necessary sacrifice”.
That Hamas must go is simply undeniable.
Sure. Again. You and Phelps have confused criticism of Israel with support of Hamas. I’m simply not in the camp “any who dies to eradicate Hamas is a necessary sacrifice”.
That Hamas must go is simply undeniable.
There are plenty of people in this thread and elsewhere claiming that if the only way to eradicate hamas is to keep occupying gaza, with the necessary occasional civilian casualties that goes with, then it's better to let hamas be in power and leave gaza.
Ackman simply perfect here:
Consider that Hamas chose to execute an American hostage with a bullet to the back of his head during the last two or three days (along with five other hostages) whose parents just spoke at the DNC less than two weeks ago, while hostage negotiations were underway.
Consider that the U.S. strategy over the last 330 days has been to pressure Israel to achieve a ceasefire in Gaza, including through the withholding of weapons from
@Israel
, and by periodically leaking our failure to support our ally to the media in the midst of hostage negotiations.
Consider what pressure if any the U.S. has brought to bear on Hamas and our friends in the region who harbor Hamas’ leadership?
Why? Why has our leadership adopted this failed strategy?
Because
@POTUS
Biden (who has been on vacation for 16 days) and
@KamalaHarris
, who also just skipped a ceremony at Arlington Cemetery to honor 13 fallen soldiers from the failed Afghanistan withdrawal, along with their advisers in the DNC, believe they will lose important votes in certain key swing states and from Hamas supporters on campuses.
It has been proven time and time again that the only thing that terrorists understand is brute force. Rather than pressure Israel, the United States should have put more pressure on our other allies in the region to help, and done everything we can to help Israel defeat Hamas and recover the hostages, but unfortunately this was not good politics for Biden/Harris and some of their supporters.
By being weak and lacking resolve, we failed our captured, now dead citizens, and the other hostages and their families while emboldening terrorists around the world.
The result:
It has become much less safe to be an American since October 7th because of our failed leadership.
It has become much less safe to be a member of the free world since October 7th because of our failed leadership.
We are in desperate need for a change in leadership so our enemies once again fear the United States and think twice before they act against us and/or our allies.
The time has come.
Now that Hamas is actively executing hostages, including American hostages; are we all still expected to accept that the day after will involve Hamas continuing to be involved in running Palestinian society?
It would have been better, yes. Was never expecting it to happen though, I doubt anyone who has followed this closely was.
Now that Hamas is actively executing hostages, including American hostages; are we all still expected to accept that the day after will involve Hamas continuing to be involved in running Palestinian society?
Isn't this similar to thinking any post war Afghanistan would be without Taliban? Any post war Iraq would be without any former baath party members and so on? There are going to be Hamas remnants no matter how much people pound the table demanding there not be.
Isn't this similar to thinking any post war Afghanistan would be without Taliban? Any post war Iraq would be without any former baath party members and so on? There are going to be Hamas remnants no matter how much people pound the table demanding there not be.
If you execute all of them, it's harder to have many of them around
Isn't this similar to thinking any post war Afghanistan would be without Taliban? Any post war Iraq would be without any former baath party members and so on? There are going to be Hamas remnants no matter how much people pound the table demanding there not be.
If you were dealing with people who negotiated in good faith, and really wanted to have a fair share of resources in the area, I think we'd all be on board. Make sure you find an equitable solution, since then you undermine their motivation for war and aggression.
That's not what is going on in this area. "From the river to the sea", literally means that Muslims in that area want a genocide against Israelis. It's not about the land. Just read what their leaders say and believe them.
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/hamas...
This issue is about PROTECTING western democracy as you know it. And you have players like Russia and China exploiting issues like this to divide people against themselves.
I think you'd all benefit from having a clear answer for yourself on what you'd do better or differently if you were Israel. If the answer is, just give Palestine whatever land they want... I implore you to do a more honest look at the entire situation.
Israel's trade union federation Histadrut has called for a general strike tomorrow, in support of a ceasefire and hostage deal. But there can't be many hostages left.
If you were dealing with people who negotiated in good faith, and really wanted to have a fair share of resources in the area, I think we'd all be on board. Make sure you find an equitable solution, since then you undermine their motivation for war and aggression.
That's not what is going on in this area. "From the river to the sea", literally means that Muslims in that area want a genocide against Israelis. It's not about the land. Just read what their leaders say and believe them.
Yeah that's the problem for Israel, Hamas does negotiate in good faith, the problem is they don't budge much on their demands so Israel will continue to try and bomb them into submission.
Israel's trade union federation Histadrut has called for a general strike tomorrow, in support of a ceasefire and hostage deal. But there can't be many hostages left.
On top of there probably not being many live hostages left, Hamas isn't even offering a hostage deal. The entire world can demonstrate for a hostage deal all they want. But if Hamas isn't interested, then not much they can do.
A few weeks ago Hamas was basically offering 13 live hostages for complete Israel withdrawal, and that is it. And that was probably including some of the 12 hostages that were recently executed.
Isn't this similar to thinking any post war Afghanistan would be without Taliban? Any post war Iraq would be without any former baath party members and so on? There are going to be Hamas remnants no matter how much people pound the table demanding there not be.
Unlike the US in Afghanistan and Iraq, because of geographic proximity and the existential threat Israel has the capability and political will to remove Hamas from the equation, as long as the rest of the world lets them.
With the surveillance, security perimeter and security corridors Israel has already created, Hamas in Gaza as a military/occupying force is more or less done. They cant really rearm and reorganize. They can draft all the 16 year olds they want, but they cant do much more than be neighborhood bullies under the status quo.
But for some reason most of the rest of the world really wants Hamas back in power; so eventually they will probably force Israel to leave Gaza so they can do so.
I can't think of a colony that has lasted the test of time without genociding the locals. Bad luck for Israel they established their country in the latter half of the 20th century where that kind of stuff is frowned upon.
Well, sort of. In MENA the genocidal march of Islam it is still very much an ongoing project. Numerous ethnic cleansing taking place.
But the Western world is indifferent when Arabs/Muslims ethnically cleanse blacks/Christians; and very much concerned if Arabs/Muslims are perceived as victims of "white colonialism". So here we are.
The spice must flow, and the Western elite political class was bought and payed for a long time ago.
Unlike the US in Afghanistan and Iraq, because of geographic proximity and the existential threat Israel has the capability and political will to remove Hamas from the equation, as long as the rest of the world lets them.
With the surveillance, security perimeter and security corridors Israel has already created, Hamas in Gaza as a military/occupying force is more or less done. They cant really rearm and reorganize. They can draft all the 16 year olds they want, but they cant do much more than
2 questions in regards to the last paragraph.
1. Why do people keep saying “the rest of the world wants x” whilst Israel is receiving aid from the part of the world that “matters”?
2. Why should Israel even care? I’ve read numerous times in this thread that Israel doesn’t need the aid. Why care what anyone else says?
It’s all just so contradictory to what is currently happening.
Unlike the US in Afghanistan and Iraq, because of geographic proximity and the existential threat Israel has the capability and political will to remove Hamas from the equation, as long as the rest of the world lets them.
With the surveillance, security perimeter and security corridors Israel has already created, Hamas in Gaza as a military/occupying force is more or less done. They cant really rearm and reorganize. They can draft all the 16 year olds they want, but they cant do much more than
They're still more than likely a party that is going to need to be dealt with if there are ever any real negotiations.
