Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
A crying child is when the worst terrorist attack on Jews since the holocaust.
Nice job infantilizing brown people by the way. I swear leftists actually believe in the White Man’s Burden and think brown people are incapable of waging violence with intention.
Hamas relative to the IDF is like a child fighting an adult
How so?
It's an incredibly complex, and pretty accurate representation of what's going on in Israel.
The US can easily be seen as the bullies in the Iraq/Afghan wars. They lied themselves into a war, on the pretext of defense, after having ~3k of their civilians, brutally killed. But they had to respond, even if part of the initial reason for the attacks was blowback of US foreign policy.
That's the entire point of this mess in Israel / Palestine. Both sides are simultaneously victims / perpetrator
Did Israel lie themselves into a war? I don't think Israel is either a perpetrator or at fault for this war btw. You think I'm Victor or something but I'm not
lol if you think any sane country would ever give control over both sides of their borders to a terrorist org. if Hamas truly wants those things they would disband as an org.
also you keep talking about how they are a sane organization engaged in armed resistance. too bad they committed oct 7th, too bad they were elected to government when Israel withdrew and subsequently ended all elections, too bad they steal aid meant to improve the economy and lives of Palestinians to build tunnels for their
freedom isnt free. there has never been a single colonial enslavement that wsant ended with armed struggle.
Did Israel lie themselves into a war? I don't think Israel is either a perpetrator or at fault for this war btw. You think I'm Victor or something but I'm not
I don't think you're victor, I ignore him.
My point was that there are many factors at play that are similar, not exact, and that every response to terrorism is complex. Nobody is completely innocent, and both sides are victims / perpetrators to some degree.
I said this quite some time ago. How do we measure what the appropriate level of response is, to prevent, or reduce future attacks, when your civilians are brutally murdered on your own soil?
Hamas intentionally targeted Kibbutz's, which are more or less Israeli hippy communes. Those are people they know will unlikely be unarmed. According to people who spoke at the UN, Hamas tortured nearly everyone they killed. They rapped some women so brutally that they disfigured them. They burned people alive, including women and children.
Here's some raw footage:
What's the appropriate response? Is it... well, Israel is trying to occupy Palestinian land, they deserved it?
Within DAYS of this massacre, there were campus protests against Israel. If there isn't pervasive antisemitism and ignorance going on, why weren't these campuses protesting the actual genocide going on of the Uyghurs by China? There's literally concentration camps there of Muslims. These admin officials and protestors are just trying to prevent civilian deaths, right?
What does AI have to say about this:
China has detained millions of Uyghurs and other ethnic minorities in concentration camps in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region in northwest China. These camps are part of a large system of arbitrary detention and enforced disappearance.
No, I think it's an incredibly accurate analogy.
Ya... think you guys have shown your reasoning ability pretty clearly in here. Things are very binary for you, and Hamas and terrorist are good / victims, and countries like Israel and US, bad, and the perpetrators.
Anyone have any questions? Why is anyone arguing w/ these people anymore?
I’ve been saying discussion is pointless for a while now. It’s still slightly amusing to come in here from time to time.
"America lied itself into war" is kinda sorta true, but also Americans were full-throated supporters of the Iraq War long after the deception was revealed. Bush won re-election easily even after it was widely known the WMDs weren't there.
I don't think you're victor, I ignore him.
My point was that there are many factors at play that are similar, not exact, and that every response to terrorism is complex. Nobody is completely innocent, and both sides are victims / perpetrators to some degree.
I said this quite some time ago. How do we measure what the appropriate level of response is, to prevent, or reduce future attacks, when your civilians are brutally murdered on your own soil?
Hamas intentionally targeted Kibbutz's, which are
The mental gymnastics is that America is more directly tied to Israel than China. A large part of, if not the entire real reason is that they don’t even know what a Uyghur is or that there are actual genocides going on in the world.
Hamas intentionally targeted Kibbutz's, which are more or less Israeli hippy communes. Those are people they know will unlikely be unarmed.
how do people even believe this ****?
I’ve been saying discussion is pointless for a while now. It’s still slightly amusing to come in here from time to time.
I hear you. I swore off this thread already because it's just so toxic to read. But here I am again. lol... It's just hard to read such absurd "reasoning" by people defending Hamas.
I have no dog in this fight other than pushing back against ignorance and injustice. I'm not Jewish or religious for that matter.
1) Would Israel "like" all of the land? Who wouldn't. But would they accept rigid, defined borders, and an end to settlements, in exchange for peace? In an nanosecond.
The PLO laid down their arms. Israel was given peace. The Intifadas and the rise of Hamas came after the failure to achieve a state. Israel reneged on Oslo.
Israel has been building WB settlements since fall 1967. They are designed to prevent a Palestinian state.
The mental gymnastics is that America is more directly tied to Israel than China. A large part of, if not the entire real reason is that they don’t even know what a Uyghur is or that there are actual genocides going on in the world.
Ya, I get that part. But then what are they really protesting?
I didn't realize how pervasive, institutionally, antisemitism was until I started really studying WWII some years ago. Look at all the atrocities going on around the world by other countries... yet, who has the most rulings against them at the UN... Israel of course.
What a mess.
freedom isnt free. there has never been a single colonial enslavement that wsant ended with armed struggle.
This isn't true
So muich of the british empire was ended wihtout an arned struggle. Some went to colonialists which we can agree doens't count but from Egypt to Ghana and much else, there was minimal if any armed struggle.
The PLO laid down their arms. Israel was given peace. The Intifadas and the rise of Hamas came after the failure to achieve a state. Israel reneged on Oslo.
Israel has been building WB settlements since fall 1967. They are designed to prevent a Palestinian state.
What are you even talking about? Palestinians rejected the 2-state solution in 1967, specially, stating they believed Israeli's had no place on "their land". This despite the fact Jews are clearly indigenous to Israel, and also most parts of the Middle East. They were driven from Iran, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, etc... and fled to Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exo....
Where are you getting all this alternative history? Mine's even in the bible if you're confused.
I think many of you don't even know your history, honestly.
So what are we even arguing anymore?
Everyone is an internet expert I guess though.
Jews pushed out of Arab countries, into Israel:
The first large-scale exoduses took place in the late 1940s and early 1950s, primarily from Iraq, Yemen, and Libya. In these cases, over 90% of the Jewish population left, despite the necessity of leaving their assets and properties behind.[4] Between 1948 and 1951, 260000 Jews immigrated to Israel from Arab countries.[5] In response, the Israeli government implemented policies to accommodate 600000 immigrants over a period of four years, doubling the country's Jewish population.[6] This move encountered mixed reactions in the Knesset; in addition to some Israeli officials, there were those within the Jewish Agency who opposed promoting a large-scale emigration movement among Jews whose lives were not in immediate danger.[6]
Muslim majority reject 2 state solution:
Partition was again proposed by the 1947 UN Partition Plan for the division of Palestine. It proposed a three-way division, again with Jerusalem held separately, under international control. The partition plan was accepted by Jewish Agency for Palestine and most Zionist factions who viewed it as a stepping stone to territorial expansion at an opportune time.[28][29] The Arab Higher Committee, the Arab League and other Arab leaders and governments rejected it on the basis that Arabs formed a two-thirds majority and owned a majority of the lands.[30][31] They also indicated an unwillingness to accept any form of territorial division,[32] arguing that it violated the principles of national self-determination in the UN Charter.[33][34] They announced their intention to take all necessary measures to prevent the implementation of the resolution.[35][36][37][38] Subsequently, the Intercommunal conflict in Palestine gave way to civil war[39] and the plan was not implemented.[40]
Ok. I was busy all day yesterday with real life stuff and am only just seeing this.
PointlessWords is banned for a week, and will be on probation when he returns.
Posts wishing harm on other posters are never acceptable. Do not do it.
Ty... I saw that too and was surprised it was not addressed.
this is the post he was responding to
inflammatory derogatory and mocking of multiple groups of people.
What are you even talking about? Palestinians rejected the 2-state solution in 1967, specially, stating they believed Israeli's had no place on "their land"
That was then. In the 1990s the PLO recognized Israel, laid down their arms, and at the Oslo accords everybody agreed on a process leading to a state. This is not alternate history, it is standard.
The Iron Wall by Israeli historian Avi Shlaim can catch you up on what's happened since 1967.
I don't think you're victor, I ignore him.
My point was that there are many factors at play that are similar, not exact, and that every response to terrorism is complex. Nobody is completely innocent, and both sides are victims / perpetrators to some degree.
I said this quite some time ago. How do we measure what the appropriate level of response is, to prevent, or reduce future attacks, when your civilians are brutally murdered on your own soil?
Hamas intentionally targeted Kibbutz's, which are
Brother. We are on the same page. The only reason I said the US/Iraq analogy sucked is because as you said yourself, the US lied themselves into a war. I obviously don't think this is the case for Israel. I personally believe the entire Bush administration should be locked up for the rest of their miserable lives for that war.
My criticism has never been about what Israel is doing to Hamas, if I could press a button that kills every single last Hamas member and liberates the innocent Palestinians from both Hamas and the consequences that come from attacking innocent Israeli's I'd press it in a heartbeat.
