Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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I get it. We are 11 months into a war. People suffer in wars. There is food insecurity. Hamas regularly stealing food shipments to sell marked up on the black market is making food insecurity even worse.
Wars are bad. Hamas and Palestinian "civilians" shouldn't have done 10/7/2023. At any point in the last 11 months Hamas should have given the hostages back and made peace on whatever terms they could. It has chosen not to do this, and people are suffering for it.
I suppose this is progress from stating that it doesn't meet the "eye or logic test", which it absolutely does.
The argument you just posted is a pretty common excuse for heinous activities. In the Ukraine thread it took a similar form but the logic was equally faulty: "Russia isn't killing civilians, destroying civilian infrastructure, torturing people, forcefully deporting people, brainwashing and Russifying areas; war is doing these things!" No, Russia is, and in this case Israel is.
This isn't just some "bad things happen during war" issue. These are deliberate strategies coming from the top that are inexcusable, which is why the excuses are so flimsy when looked at closely.
People suffer during wars, that's true. It doesn't mean IDF gets to starve millions.
Hamas regularly steals shipments, that's true. It doesn't mean IDF gets to starve millions.
Wars are bad, that's true. It doesn't mean IDF gets to starve millions.
Hamas should not have done October 7, that's true. It doesn't mean IDF gets to starve millions.
Hamas could surrender, that's true. It doesn't mean IDF gets to starve millions.
If Israel is unable to prosecute this war in a manner that minimizes the impact on civilians then their international standing will continue to plummet and they will suffer the consequences of that. This is a fact. Israel might decide they don't care (although I think they do), but the problem absolutely does not lie with Israel's allies having too high of standards for protecting civilians.
This is not solely based on morals either; it is strategic.
I do not think this is the point. The West Bank, which is thriving relative to Gaza, is not the point. The point is Hamas, which has as its goal the destruction if Israel. Israel continues to poke that eye, and the eyes of every backer of Hamas, until they are forced to decide between peace or continued escalation. Israel has made it clear the will never stop rubbing salt, acid, maggots, and whatever other irritant they can think of, into the wound that is the Israeli-Palestinian divide. They do
weird thing to say as Israel lays siege to cities in the West Bank.
the point is really easy to see if you just read and listen to Israelis. most of them want to take all the land and wipe out the Palestinians. I guess this is fine bc Hamas said something about the Jews in 1987 or whatever.
You have been saying this for months, and yet every picture of people in Gaza (except for the staged ones from Bill and Victor's sketchy sources) show people that are normal BW or even obese. If the starvation situation was anything close to what you have been claiming for months, we would be inundated with wall to wall coverage of it.
Go find a random picture of Palestinians walking around from AJ or Reuters or BBC (not one that is specifically staged to show a "starving child") and no one lo
I don’t think we are looking at the same pictures. More to the point, there are documented cases of deaths by starvation.
Yes, shitty things happen during wars. I have never shied away from that.
Israel is still doing way less than it CAN do to minimize the shitty things.
Yes Israel actions aren't based on MINMIZING shitty things, the main focus is eradicating Hamas, as it should be.
It is already an incredible show of morality to give ANY consideration to palestinian civilians. Of course eradicating Hamas would be far easier by blocking aid 100%.
Now you want them to do even more, even if they haven't eradicated Hamas yet.
When 2 goals can't both be achieved in full you need a value priority, and it's a moral imperative (would be actually a dereliction of duty, close to treason in the contrary case) for Israel to put the eradication of Hamas above the wellbeing of palestinian civilians in their goals.
It Is Not Hamas That Is Collapsing, but Israel
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-09-...
itzhak Brik
Sep 3, 2024
fyi Itzhak Brik is an Israeli IDF General (reserve). He served in the Armored Corps as a brigade, division and troops commander and served as the commander of the IDF military colleges. He fought as a reserve company commander in the Yom Kippur War and was decorated with the Medal of Courage
I don’t think we are looking at the same pictures. More to the point, there are documented cases of deaths by starvation.
Yes, shitty things happen during wars. I have never shied away from that.
Israel is still doing way less than it CAN do to minimize the shitty things.
What are examples of things Israel can do to minimize the “shitty things” which don’t materially hamper their military operations or put soldiers and civilians in greater danger?
I suppose this is progress from stating that it doesn't meet the "eye or logic test", which it absolutely does.
The argument you just posted is a pretty common excuse for heinous activities. In the Ukraine thread it took a similar form but the logic was equally faulty: "Russia isn't killing civilians, destroying civilian infrastructure, torturing people, forcefully deporting people, brainwashing and Russifying areas; war is doing these things!" No, Russia is, and in this case Israel is.
This isn't
Ukraine Russia is not analogous to the Israel Gaza conflict. IDF isn’t starving millions, Hamas is. The IDF removing Hamas is the only successful path forward for the Palestinians. All other outcomes leave them in the same situation for perpetuity.
Ukraine Russia is not analogous to the Israel Gaza conflict. IDF isn’t starving millions, Hamas is. The IDF removing Hamas is the only successful path forward for the Palestinians. All other outcomes leave them in the same situation for perpetuity.
There are strong analogies between the 2 wars, in both cases one side is 100% wrong and the other 100% right. In both cases the west has pragmatic and moral reasons to help the side which is right.
In both cases complete capitulation of the enemy side is a moral and pragmatical necessity as a goal, no compromise can exist until in Israel case, Hamas (and every group akin to that) is completly eradicated, in Ukraine case, until they get back at a very minimum to 2021 borders.
I understand people like vic being inimical to core western values and goals, taking the wrong side in both conflicts.
What i completly fail to understand is how someone can see the obvious need to help Ukraine achieve it's goals, no matter the amount of suffering of russian civilians, while they fail to see the exact same thing applies for Israel.
I was not comparing the two conflicts directly. I was comparing the fallacious reasoning that people aren't doing horrible things, war is.
In both conflicts the complete capitulation of the enemy is a poor goal to have which will only make the situation worse.
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-09-...
itzhak Brik
Sep 3, 2024
fyi Itzhak Brik is an Israeli IDF General (reserve). He served in the Armored Corps as a brigade, division and troops commander and served as the commander of the IDF military colleges. He fought as a reserve company commander in the Yom Kippur War and was decorated with the Medal of Courage
every few weeks this guy writes the same article lol
I was not comparing the two conflicts directly. I was comparing the fallacious reasoning that people aren't doing horrible things, war is.
In both conflicts the complete capitulation of the enemy is a poor goal to have which will only make the situation worse.
Maybe you disagree but if it helped materially win the war, i would be ok with Ukraine doing literally anything to russian civilians in order to achieve that outcome as well.
Russia is wrong in what it does because *they are the unprovoked aggressor*, not because what they do is inherently wrong.
When under existential threat , in order to survive, it's absoluetly moral to do anything if you are the victim of total injustice and , again, under lethal threat.
No moral is higher that surviving a threat of death.
Complete capitulation of Hamas is far easier to achieve if Israel fed properly fed even a small number of Gazans. Divide and conquer to win the hearts and minds of the chosen of the conquered is a tactic that predates Judaism.
While I would continue to support Ukraine, I would not support certain efforts. Their allies would not support certain efforts, and not just because of their strategic value, but their morality as well.
In Israel's case, not only have they chosen an amoral route, but they chose the method which has been proven to fail, and ignored the methods which had far better results. By not confining the war to the 30k members in Hamas, they will now have to face off against 2 million.
Complete capitulation of Hamas is far easier to achieve if Israel fed properly fed even a small number of Gazans. Divide and conquer to win the hearts and minds of the chosen of the conquered is a tactic that predates Judaism.
It could be true, so the question is, how to you properly feed palestinian civilians without locking up too many people you don't have for that task and /or without hamas benefiting from more aid circulating in the areas they still control?
I strongly disagree on the point about proven to fail.
When was the last time Hizbollah kidnapped Israelis?
Hamas is the only one in the region that didn't realize Israel was always capable and, at some point, willing to do what it's doing now to restore deterrence.
I define success by more than just whether or not kidnappings occur.
There are strong analogies between the 2 wars, in both cases one side is 100% wrong and the other 100% right. In both cases the west has pragmatic and moral reasons to help the side which is right.
In both cases complete capitulation of the enemy side is a moral and pragmatical necessity as a goal, no compromise can exist until in Israel case, Hamas (and every group akin to that) is completly eradicated, in Ukraine case, until they get back at a very minimum to 2021 borders.
I understand people l
Yeah I more meant his comparison makes little sense. Israel is comparable to Ukraine while he is trying to compare Israel to Russia for some reason. Russia is killing civilians but Ukraine does not use human shields, which makes the comparison he’s trying to draw pretty silly.
I did not make the comparison which you are calling silly.
While I would continue to support Ukraine, I would not support certain efforts. Their allies would not support certain efforts, and not just because of their strategic value, but their morality as well.
In Israel's case, not only have they chosen an amoral route, but they chose the method which has been proven to fail, and ignored the methods which had far better results. By not confining the war to the 30k members in Hamas, they will now have to face off against 2 million.
Yeah I don’t think you have an accurate perception of the conflict if you think Israel can “confine the war to the 30k members in Hamas”. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Israel is facing.
Too many Israeli lives would be negatively affected by using a nuke large enough to "end it".
What about the Palestinian lives? Not many enough?
Yes Israel actions aren't based on MINMIZING shitty things, the main focus is eradicating Hamas, as it should be.
It is already an incredible show of morality to give ANY consideration to palestinian civilians. Of course eradicating Hamas would be far easier by blocking aid 100%.
Now you want them to do even more, even if they haven't eradicated Hamas yet.
Not dehumanizing Palestinians are you. The sad part is, you genuinely are okay with killing every last Palestinian if it means Hamas is gone too.
If Israel is unable to prosecute this war in a manner that minimizes the impact on civilians then their international standing will continue to plummet and they will suffer the consequences of that. This is a fact. Israel might decide they don't care (although I think they do), but the problem absolutely does not lie with Israel's allies having too high of standards for protecting civilians.
This is not solely based on morals either; it is strategic.
It is such a ridiculous spot. It is supposed to be Hamas job to make sure their people get food, and if they cant do that job; they should be suing for peace and quitting. Or the rest of the world should be helping the people leave, whether they want to or not.
Yet they mostly do the opposite. Hamas is so nihilistic, cruel and malicious; and yet the Western world is completely agnostic (if not supportive) and the Ummah loves them for it. The whole moral landscape is just perverse.
At some point the Western world has to stop incentivizing and rewarding such a dysfunctional situation; or there can be no catharsis or resolution. Countries like US, UK, France and UAE are the ones perpetuating the problem; and they cant put it all on the country being attacked for 80 years straight to fix their mess.
