Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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1 cal per gram of cooked rice. You could get ~4 cal per grain of uncooked but you can't just ship rice either in that case. Water is zero cal and is quite heavy.
We're looking at starvation, at least the edge of it, even with very charitable interpretations of aid allowed through.
You're better off arguing Hamas is making aid far more difficult to distribute than necessary.
Israel could have and should have done more. They could make Gazans consume cooked meals on the spot (to ensure Hamas doesn't
You have been saying this for months, and yet every picture of people in Gaza (except for the staged ones from Bill and Victor's sketchy sources) show people that are normal BW or even obese. If the starvation situation was anything close to what you have been claiming for months, we would be inundated with wall to wall coverage of it.
Go find a random picture of Palestinians walking around from AJ or Reuters or BBC (not one that is specifically staged to show a "starving child") and no one looks starving. Nothing even remotely close to what Ukranian prisoners look like when Russia returns them or even the random refugee child in your African country of choice.
Sorry. This claim just doesn't meet the eye test or the logic test. It didn't 8 months ago, or 4 months ago, or today.
Do you think that even if this photo is fake, this is happening for real in ten other places ?
Of course, we know it's happening, and it isn't because of pics on the internet.
I'm actually fairly confident that the particular pic is real - as far as not being edited or cropped but other than that, and as demeaning it may come across, it means absolutely nothing as far as gauging what is actually happening anywhere.
But it's just the times we are in right now. It's like the literal billions of pics being flooded on facebook to get all the old people to reminisce about the good old days of the steel workers standing on a high beam drinking a beer or a woman tending to her crops in 1929 and almost everyone not realizing yet that none of those pics are possible. You're personally not going to be able to spot what's legit and what's fake and the ratio isn't on your side. It isn't the way to determine accuracy of anything.
But I think the problem is that people don't fully understand the reason the incentives for why people or businesses would create and send so much bullshit out into the ether for people to click on. It's like a fundamental error in how ad revenue should work and everyone is going HAM which is ****ing up everyone's sense of understanding as a side effect.
You have been saying this for months, and yet every picture of people in Gaza (except for the staged ones from Bill and Victor's sketchy sources) show people that are normal BW or even obese. If the starvation situation was anything close to what you have been claiming for months, we would be inundated with wall to wall coverage of it.
Go find a random picture of Palestinians walking around from AJ or Reuters or BBC (not one that is specifically staged to show a "starving child") and no one lo
sketchy sources like the UN
seems fine bc Dun saw some pictures he liked and disregarded the ones he didnt like
also, all of the Gazans who have been saying they are starving for months were just lying bc they are lazy and wanted handouts. they should get a job.
--This is the first picture you see on AJ when you click on the Israeli-Palestinian war. Do these people look like they have been methodically starved for 11 months? Every picture that isn't staged to push the "starving" narrative looks like this. Healthy BW (or obese) people.
--That same page has a video of doctors administering polio vaccine to a bunch of children. None of them look starving. If the argument is there isn't enough food for 45% of people to be morbidly obese like the US, then at least the eye test supports this. But the starving narrative, the eye test doesn't support it at all.
sketchy sources like the UN
seems fine bc Dun saw some pictures he liked and disregarded the ones he didnt like
also, all of the Gazans who have been saying they are starving for months were just lying bc they are lazy and wanted handouts. they should get a job.
Yes it’s an assessment, designed to be used to target the aid that is being delivered if it wasn’t being politicized.
Remember, all this can be stopped if Hamas lays down their arms and surrenders.
IPC-3 does not necessarily mean that people are starving.
At least 20 percent of households have significant food consumption gaps OR are marginally able to meet minimum food needs only with irreversible coping strategies such as liquidating livelihood assets. Levels of acute malnutrition are high and above normal.
This level is more of a warning that famine is an imminent threat, and if things don't improve that it will remain an imminent threat. We have absolutely been seeing this, especially the "irreversible coping strategies", also referred to as "poor people clamoring for free stuff".
It is important to note that people can be overweight and still be suffering from malnutrition. This is viewable even in USA#1, where homeless people are often overweight but still not healthy looking because they are reliant on high calorie, but low nutritional value meals. In IPC-3 type situations preventing death from starvation takes precedence over malnutrition, so calorie dense meals are given priority over nutrition dense meals.
Another misleading thing as far as picture evidence goes is that pictures are more likely to be from the places suffering the least, and are the least dangerous. So we are going to mostly be seeing the conditions from IPC-3 areas, rarely from IPC-4, and extremely rarely from IPC-5.
I would say territorial expansionism is not an acceptable form of self-defense, yes. But also, this is geopolitics. At some point Israel has to analyze if the right-wing idealized form of zionism is a prudent political project given the associated loss of status on an international scale, as well as the domestic security concerns associated with that.
Israel should want to continue and expand their security and quasi-political alliance with the West Bank, and the settlements are not in accordance with that goal. Maybe Israel doesn’t care about having such an alliance, in which case I think they are completely wrong and misguided but I’m also not an Israeli citizen.
The United States has announced criminal charges against Hamas’ top leaders over their roles in planning, supporting and perpetrating the 7 October attack in southern Israel.
The charges against Yahya Sinwar, the militant group’s chief, and at least five others accuse them of orchestrating the attack, which killed 1,200 people, including more than 40 Americans.
That attack triggered an Israeli assault on Gaza that has killed more than 40,800 Palestinians and laid waste to much of the territory.
The seven-count criminal complaint includes charges of conspiracy to provide material support to a foreign terrorist organisation, conspiracy to murder US nationals and conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction, resulting in death.
It also accuses Iran and Lebanon’s Hezbollah of providing financial support and weapons, including rockets, and military supplies.
“As outlined in our complaint, those defendants – armed with weapons, political support, and funding from the government of Iran, and support from [Hezbollah] – have led Hamas’s efforts to destroy the state of Israel and murder civilians in support of that aim,” attorney general Merrick Garland said in a statement.
“The charges unsealed today are just one part of our effort to target every aspect of Hamas’s operations. These actions will not be our last,” Garland said. “Yahya Sinwar and the other senior leaders of Hamas are charged today with orchestrating this terrorist organization’s decades-long campaign of mass violence and terror – including on October 7th.”
The complaint names six defendants, three of whom are dead. The living defendants are Sinwar, who is believed to be in hiding in Gaza; Khaled Meshaal, who is based in Doha and heads the group’s diaspora office; and Ali Baraka, a senior Hamas official based in Lebanon.
The deceased defendants are former Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh, who was assassinated in July in Tehran; military wing chief Mohammed Deif, who Israel said it killed in a July airstrike; and Marwan Issa, a deputy military commander who Israel said it killed in a March strike.
IPC-3 does not necessarily mean that people are starving.
This level is more of a warning that famine is an imminent threat, and if things don't improve that it will remain an imminent threat. We have absolutely been seeing this, especially the "irreversible coping strategies", also referred to as "poor people clamoring for free stuff".
It is important to note that people can be overweight and still be suffering from malnutrition. This is viewable even in USA#1, where homeless people are often ov
Part of the deep hole netanyahu is digging for israel is that when this does come to an end, the pictures and stories will really start to emerge and continue for a very long time.
I get it. We are 11 months into a war. People suffer in wars. There is food insecurity. Hamas regularly stealing food shipments to sell marked up on the black market is making food insecurity even worse.
Wars are bad. Hamas and Palestinian "civilians" shouldn't have done 10/7/2023. At any point in the last 11 months Hamas should have given the hostages back and made peace on whatever terms they could. It has chosen not to do this, and people are suffering for it.
I am not ok with Hamas causing the death of Palestinian kids no, not at all.
Especially if they starve them by withholding food because they sell it to buy weapons, or because the family of the kid doesn't support Hamas.
Are you?
Hamas should surrender unconditionally to stop all of this, they could at any time, if they don't it is all on them, every death, every suffering, everything you claim you want to stop.
Israel has a full moral right to keep the war ongoing to eradicate Hamas once and foreve
If Israel nuked Gaza, is that all on Hamas?
I get it. We are 11 months into a war. People suffer in wars. There is food insecurity. Hamas regularly stealing food shipments to sell marked up on the black market is making food insecurity even worse.
Wars are bad. Hamas and Palestinian "civilians" shouldn't have done 10/7/2023. At any point in the last 11 months Hamas should have given the hostages back and made peace on whatever terms they could. It has chosen not to do this, and people are suffering for it.
One of the fundamentals of Geneva is that collective punishment is inexcusable
I would say territorial expansionism is not an acceptable form of self-defense, yes. But also, this is geopolitics. At some point Israel has to analyze if the right-wing idealized form of zionism is a prudent political project given the associated loss of status on an international scale, as well as the domestic security concerns associated with that.
Israel should want to continue and expand their security and quasi-political alliance with the West Bank, and the settlements are not in accordance
I do not think this is the point. The West Bank, which is thriving relative to Gaza, is not the point. The point is Hamas, which has as its goal the destruction if Israel. Israel continues to poke that eye, and the eyes of every backer of Hamas, until they are forced to decide between peace or continued escalation. Israel has made it clear the will never stop rubbing salt, acid, maggots, and whatever other irritant they can think of, into the wound that is the Israeli-Palestinian divide. They do so because peace is impossible with Hamas in power. There is only death and destruction that awaits if Israel appeases Hamas. Israel can not allow anyone to feel that the status quo is livable, acceptable, or can be made to work.
Anyone who thinks peace is possible with Hamas in power is an impediment to peace. If Israel loses status among those who think otherwise they are willing to take that risk. It does not matter how many useless alliances Israel has, if their useless alliances are willing to tolerate the continued existence of Hamas.
You either support Hamas, and their goal to destroy Israel, or you need to support the destruction of Hamas. There can be no middle ground. That is Israel's point in everything they do, and they will continue to infuriate those who want middle ground.
I do not think this is the point. The West Bank, which is thriving relative to Gaza, is not the point. The point is Hamas, which has as its goal the destruction if Israel. Israel continues to poke that eye, and the eyes of every backer of Hamas, until they are forced to decide between peace or continued escalation. Israel has made it clear the will never stop rubbing salt, acid, maggots, and whatever other irritant they can think of, into the wound that is the Israeli-Palestinian divide. They do
Israel doesn't care about peace
You either support Hamas, and their goal to destroy Israel, or you need to support the destruction of Hamas. There can be no middle ground. That is Israel's point in everything they do, and they will continue to infuriate those who want middle ground.
I support the destruction of Hamas and Israel.
Part of the deep hole netanyahu is digging for israel is that when this does come to an end, the pictures and stories will really start to emerge and continue for a very long time.
Much like Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Dresden. Worth it if it means the end of Hamas and the beginning of peace. Sure, Netanyahu will go the way of Patton, fired and disgraced. But, worth it.
That may be your view
The political impact on sentiment and support for israel will continue to be even more severe. That's the reality.
I do not think this is the point. The West Bank, which is thriving relative to Gaza, is not the point. The point is Hamas, which has as its goal the destruction if Israel. Israel continues to poke that eye, and the eyes of every backer of Hamas, until they are forced to decide between peace or continued escalation. Israel has made it clear the will never stop rubbing salt, acid, maggots, and whatever other irritant they can think of, into the wound that is the Israeli-Palestinian divide. They do
I support the destruction of Hamas. I don’t think undermining the tentative peace with the West Bank is the way to do that. And I seriously doubt that the goal of the expansion of settlements in the West Bank is a way of opposing Hamas.
I do however completely agree that peace with Hamas seems impossible. If it were possible they would have released the hostages in exchange for a ceasefire long ago. They seem to at least tolerate if not relish in the destruction of their own people, and that should be unacceptable to anyone with a brain.
The international support Israel needs will continue to hemorrhage. Terrorists/ extremists will continue to be enabled
It matters a lot for Israel whether you care or not
