LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Pau was a better fit with Kobe than any of Lebron's teammates.

That's not a diss on Wade/Bosh/Irving.

Pau joined the Lakers and they instantly went from like a 7th seed to a 1st.

Love and Bosh > Pau

That means Kobe is much better than Lebron by virtue of producing better teams with far less help..

Kobe and Pau would need a 2nd Kobe to match the big 3 of Lebron/Bosh/Wade, yet Kobe still produced more dominant teams due to his superior skillset that produced better chemistry and teammate elevation..

Notice how legitimate this argument is and that there are no such arguments for Lebron because he mostly lost with every team and never produced dominant teams despite stacking the deck.

Context provided in bolded - everything is 100% legit and backed up by facts.
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You think it was just Pau?... Kobe and Jordan fit with everyone and didn't have bad fits, while Lebron has a long list of bad fits with many teammates... You guys are simply in denial of this fact.

You're claiming that Jordan and Kobe got lucky to fit with every teammate over their combined 35-year career, while it's just coincidence that Lebron reduced many teammates over 21 years - 35 years of MJ and Kobe elevating guys, and 21 years of Lebron reducing everyone is just coincidence .. got it, smh.

that's a nice delusion, but the reality is that high-scoring ball-dominators like Luka and Lebron reduce everyone's assists and increase their assisted rate, so they turn everyone into spot-up shooters - this is statistical fact and it explains why they have such bad chemistry and low team ceilings/Finals records over the massive sample size that is their entire career.. Weak fits and underperforming teammates happen for their entire career... It's just bad luck and coincidence tho, according to you.

That's what Kobe and MJ would do with any veteran all-star - they won 8 titles with secondary producers at sidekick because their game ELEVATES other stars and all teammates, so they can win with less help.. Otoh, Lebron needs far more help because his game doesn't elevate teammates and produces bad chemistry that always "needs more help" (the story of bron-ball's career).

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The all-star duo of MJ and Zydrunas would've obviously 3-peated with this:

05' HUGHES..... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP... 22/6/5.. 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN....... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP... 16/6/5.. No All-D

Only Lebron has a long list of bad fits and teammates getting significantly reduced alongside him.

Imagine if Kuzma never escaped bron-ball - he would be playing in the Turkish league by now... Westbrook would've retired by now... Ingram would never have been an all-star - let that sink in.... Wade would've won his 2nd FMVP in 2011 instead of the 2nd-worst fit and underachievement ever (behind Lebron/Westbrick).. Lebron and Hughes would've 3-peated (see stats above)... Lebron's bad fits and chemistry is the only thing preventing all these things.

IT was one of many guys that got cratered and risked their career alongside bron-ball.. Forwards like Kuzma, Jamison, Love and Bosh were destroyed - it's a massive pattern - Love would've EASILY made the HOF if he stayed in Minnesota and racked up more All-NBA's and high MVP rankings... Now he might not make HOF at all -

These bad fits are a travesty that were caused by Lebron and his simpleton skillset of high-scoring point guard play (high-scoring ball-domination).. In the 90's, point guards only averaged 20 ppg because it was common knowledge that excessive ball-domination was BAD (high-scoring ball-domination).. But in today's game, the entire brand of ball has devolved into the exact ball-domination and bad brand of ball that 90's point guards avoided.. Consequently, today's ball-dominators have perennially-underperforming teams and teams that "need more help" like Luka, Ant, SGA or Lebron's teams (dumb ball-dominators).
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Show me where Devin Booker or any of today's wings have this caliber of finishing ability - this is from the Alumni game in 1987 of North Carolina vs UCLA:

This is how MJ won the game at the end:

Again, there's no wing in history with this caliber of finishing ability.. 84-93' Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all-time... And btw, that alumni team would've been a goat team - 87' Jordan + 87' Worthy + Kenny Smith and Sam Perkins = minimum 3-peat

For record keeping reasons, Kobe "mostly lost" with Shaq (3/8) and "mostly lost" with Pau (2/7).

Anyway. If you put LeBron in Kobe's spot there is no scenerio that he doesn't win 3/8 with Shaq. Most likely more. And he wouldn't chase Shaq out of town, so they probably go at least 10 years together.

And then if you put him with Pau and co I'd take the over on 2 chips.

Look at that amazing 80s defense.

at least its college.

typical lebron defense is amazing in the nba...

Your argument falls apart right away because Shaq's caliber was sweep loss every year until 2000.

This includes 3 sweep losses with Penny (1st Team All-NBA), and 3 sweeps with young Kobe, so he doesn't win anything with 2005 Lebron, who was lottery with the East all-star center on his team..

Let that sink in.

History shows that Shaq and Lebron were both bad for a while, which included many upset losses and sweep losses to start their career.... A team with both guys would lose every playoff game in the clutch against the good teams based on FT's and turnovers alone, but most games wouldn't be close due to inferior brand and chemistry, the hallmark of both players.. Bad losses and underperforming favored talent is what shaq and lebron DO.

Your argument was refuted above without even saying the most evident truth that Shaq and Lebron could never play together due to a horrible fit - Shaq simply isn't a PNR player and he would refuse to play that way.. Meanwhile, Lebron lacks the scoring diversity to play off Shaq, or ANY player... 21 years of low assisted rate, point guard hold-time, and low team assists confirms his inability to play off-the-ball, even without the eye test quickly confirming this common knowledge.

Ultimately, Kobe could get 40 while Shaq still ate because Kobe could play off Shaq.. Meanwhile, Lebron gets 40 via ball-dominance and screens, so Shaq can only be a roll-man (no all-time mid-range touch like Malone), and therefore face the basket much more than he should or wants to.. Again, it's a horrible fit and playing style for Shaq, so the union would never get off the ground with Lebron - one of them would get traded, sit-out, leave or some combination.

Lebron needed a miracle to win 2 with Wade/Bosh, so how can he win 2 with only 1 star that is worse than both?.. smh... And he went 1/4 with another player that was better than Pau (Love), while having Kyrie for 3 of those Eastern runs and 2 Finals..

Based on this historical record of mostly losing with casts and sidekicks that were better than Pau, it's confirmed that he can't win with Pau, let alone repeat.

Furthermore, when Lebron got 18 ppg from his sidekick, he lost to every Finals opponent, or top 5 SRS opponent...

So the 2nd reason that Lebron and Pau cannot win is that Pau requires the 1st option to carry the scoring load on the Finals level (defeat max defensive attention), which Lebron cannot do.. Most people don't realize that Kobe's expert jumpshooting skill and ability to play off Pau allowed him to get 40 while the ball moves, so the brand was sufficient to beat top teams with Kobe scoring that much.. Otoh, Lebron's 40 is a ball-dominant one, which can't beat top teams and therefore needs all-time scoring help... Accordingly, Lebron never carried the scoring load on the championship level, which Pau requires, and he also never beat top teams with weak help (weak scoring & efficiency form sidekick)..

Was wondering .
Taking into account work ethic , chemistry , etc.

Who wins more ring ?
Shaq LeBron or Kobe LeBron ?

Jordan faced 2 defenders that were WAITING under the rim, which he would never face today.. He wouldn't need the insane shot-making that he needed in prior eras.

Furthermore, Jordan makes everyone look slow and that's the first thing that you would notice if prime Jordan suddenly appeared in today's NBA - you would understand why they call him the black cat (cat-quick).

No one moves like him because there's never been a Giannis, Lebron, or Zion-like athleticism in a 6'6" wing frame, so there's never been fundamentals done with such athleticism - no one has ever executed nuanced 1 or 2-dribble pull-ups and moves with goat-level athleticism - only the GOAT

When you look at all the GOAT shooters on either 2-pointers or 3-pointers, only MJ is a goat athlete as well - he was the goat 2-point jumpshooter and also had goat athleticism.

And even though he never practiced or cared about threes and mostly took low-efficiency "bailout volume", he always shot at today's standard from three when he had today's volume.. Accordingly, since he shot 36-39% at today's volume WITHOUT practice, he would easily clear 40% WITH practice...

Ultimately, there's no reason to believe that he wouldn't be a good 3-point shooter based on this track record of shooting well at today's volumes despite the lack of practice, along with his goat form/mechanics/work ethic..

If you were a scout and you were scouting the only times that Jordan had today's volume, such as 39% on 4 attempts during the 93' Playoffs, or the 1990 regular season, or the 92' Finals and 91-93' Playoffs (39%) - you would say that he has tremendous potential and likelihood of elite shooting in eras that really focus on the shot.

If there was a white guy that quick, surely they'd call him the WHITE cat

Or if it were Kobe, he said that he prefers the

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/kQ_TYOCNhXs

YouTube

kobe bryant the caramel cat

You also fail to notice the ground that MJ covered and defenders mitigated with 2 dribbles and 5 steps, once he starts the right-to-left crossover.

He is covering tremendous ground and many defenders with unexaggerated movement and 2 dribbles, compared to Ant covering no ground or defenders with 3 dribbles as shown above..

This is Ant being haphazard or "flying by the seat of his pants" and lacking polish... Specifically, look how each guy sets up their drive - Ant doesn't set it up at all and doesn't know how to do so quickly, while the efficiency, form and mastery of MJ's slight shoulder fake is very obvious - it sets up the defender-freeze and subsequent blow-by - a perfect move and distance when faking the screen use.. It's goat scoring IQ at 24 years old and 37 ppg.

MJ's crossover and acceleration is so quick even in the slow-mo, while being so fluid as well, that he could easily pass for a 6'1" player if you didn't know better.

This thread is like Seinfeld’s episode with “Serenity Now” but substitute it with “Jordan GOAT 4EVA”

Well, he was right at least with a part of his post.

"History shows that Shaq and Lebron were both bad for a while, which included many upset losses "

Remember the upset loss when Shaq beat MJ?

Fallguy - Thoughts on the following series from Kobe? I mean if LeBron had any of these you'd be all over him for being terrible.

lol, they won most of them... because... you know... Shaq

I mean Pau was probably better than Kobe in the 2010 Finals.

Pau was definitely better in the 2010 Western Conference First Round.

Pau kept choking Kobe from being knocked out in the first round that year.

Man if only LeBron got to play with Shaq and Pau. Imagine that.

By GameScore Kobe was the 4th best player in the first round. Only just nudging out superstar Bynum.

you saying pau is better then pippen ?
that 2010 was pretty good performance .
had to beat 50+ wins team all the way.
the west was a killer for a very long time....

When i look at lebron team he had to go trough in the east almost his entire career i just lol...

Blah blah Kobe, blah blah Pau, blah blah chemistry. Who gives a **** at this point?

The GOAT's career will soon move into its 22nd season, fresh off an Olympic MVP. I feel sorry for those imprisoned by the past.

Reminder how Game 6 of the 2010 first round went

Pau saving Kobe's legacy.

Pau obviously better than Pippen. FG has proven that Pippen was lucky to even be in the NBA.